Dogwood Creek
New member
I have been wondering, is anyone having success with the 221 Fireball on Coyote? How does it compare to the .222?
Anybody using a Fireball for Coyote?
- Thread starter Dogwood Creek
- Start date
sleddogg
New member
Dogwood Creek......I used a Fireball off and on for the last 2 years, and results were mixed, but expected. Like all little 224's, shot placement is very critical, and moreso with the Fireball. Chest shots will put the dogs down fast, but I have never bang-flopped a coyote with the Fireball.
I have reserved the 221 Fireball for open country hunting where I can pick and choose shots better than woods style hunting. I will admit to having a few too many runners than I'd care for, and 2 were not recovered. Thats 2 too many.
Here is a nice one shot at over 200 yards with my 221 FB in Remington LS. Chest shot laid him low in a big cut cornfeild after about a 75 yard run. Shot was perfect, which is easy to do with the Fireball.
If you hunt in the open, go for it, in the woods though, you will become a good tracker....but if you are asking, no the Fireball is not a Premire coyote round. Least not here in the East, just not enough gun.
I have reserved the 221 Fireball for open country hunting where I can pick and choose shots better than woods style hunting. I will admit to having a few too many runners than I'd care for, and 2 were not recovered. Thats 2 too many.
Here is a nice one shot at over 200 yards with my 221 FB in Remington LS. Chest shot laid him low in a big cut cornfeild after about a 75 yard run. Shot was perfect, which is easy to do with the Fireball.
If you hunt in the open, go for it, in the woods though, you will become a good tracker....but if you are asking, no the Fireball is not a Premire coyote round. Least not here in the East, just not enough gun.
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
I consider the 223 or 222 as the minimum for coyote and marginal for eastern coyotes. They work pretty good for little western coyotes. In the east the 243 is my minimum.
I love the 221 but it is light even for western coyotes.
But then again some people swear the Hornet is more than enough for coyotes. Some people even say the 17HMR is guaranteed sudden death. That has not been my experience. I have seen eastern coyotes hit with a 243 shot that would have dropped a moose within 50 yards go for 600 yards and be alive an hour later.
Jack
I love the 221 but it is light even for western coyotes.
But then again some people swear the Hornet is more than enough for coyotes. Some people even say the 17HMR is guaranteed sudden death. That has not been my experience. I have seen eastern coyotes hit with a 243 shot that would have dropped a moose within 50 yards go for 600 yards and be alive an hour later.
Jack
sleddogg
New member
Jack - It is refreshing to hear someone other than myself make a distinction between Eastern and Western coyotes and terrain.
Hard for some folks to acknowledge a difference in both coyotes and caliber needs East and West. I know a smaller caliber is completely reasonable for Western calling, and quite effective there for many reasons. For the same reasons, sub-calibers stuggle in the East.
I have only hunted Western style once in Colorado before the area around Denver got so crazy with development. Coyotes were plentiful, but small. Average size was much, much smaller than the East. I make no judgement on this fact other than a smaller animal is much easier to kill.
Jack, I am in agreement on your statement that 223 is a minimum caliber for coyotes. I have killed large Easterns ( 50 plus pounds) with the 223, but it was good fortune to get a perfect shot on him.
I would have to get the optimum calling caliber in the East at .243 Winchester, and the 22-250 making up into a reliable killer of Western coyotes.
223 is a slick little round that works adequately on coyotes, but it struggles here in the East at odd angles, and the snap shooting so common in the forest here.
I would say the 223 is so popular because of the AR platform, and good ammo availability moreso than its a devestating coyote round.
If you have hunted with a 243 or 22-250, you will quickly see the difference in decisive coyote kills. Some folks need the extra punch, many do not based on hunting styles and terrain. For those folks the 223 Remington will get the job done well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I use the 223, 250 and 243 mostly, but feel most comfortable with a .243 in my hands.
Hard for some folks to acknowledge a difference in both coyotes and caliber needs East and West. I know a smaller caliber is completely reasonable for Western calling, and quite effective there for many reasons. For the same reasons, sub-calibers stuggle in the East.
I have only hunted Western style once in Colorado before the area around Denver got so crazy with development. Coyotes were plentiful, but small. Average size was much, much smaller than the East. I make no judgement on this fact other than a smaller animal is much easier to kill.
Jack, I am in agreement on your statement that 223 is a minimum caliber for coyotes. I have killed large Easterns ( 50 plus pounds) with the 223, but it was good fortune to get a perfect shot on him.
I would have to get the optimum calling caliber in the East at .243 Winchester, and the 22-250 making up into a reliable killer of Western coyotes.
223 is a slick little round that works adequately on coyotes, but it struggles here in the East at odd angles, and the snap shooting so common in the forest here.
I would say the 223 is so popular because of the AR platform, and good ammo availability moreso than its a devestating coyote round.
If you have hunted with a 243 or 22-250, you will quickly see the difference in decisive coyote kills. Some folks need the extra punch, many do not based on hunting styles and terrain. For those folks the 223 Remington will get the job done well. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I use the 223, 250 and 243 mostly, but feel most comfortable with a .243 in my hands.
6mm06
Well-known member
Sleddogg,
That is one nice looking picture. Man, a coyote that size could hurt somebody if he had a mind to. Good looking rifle too. Thanks for that report about the Fireball. Have you ever used the Fireball for Bobcats? Just curious about results. Nice going and thanks for that picture.
That is one nice looking picture. Man, a coyote that size could hurt somebody if he had a mind to. Good looking rifle too. Thanks for that report about the Fireball. Have you ever used the Fireball for Bobcats? Just curious about results. Nice going and thanks for that picture.
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sleddogg
New member
6mm06 - Hey thanks! Concerning the 221 FB on Bobcats the answer is a resounding yes. Loaded with a 50 grain SP bullet (Sierra 1330) and 18 grains of RL 7 you have about the perfect cat gun.
6mm06, I know you shoot some cats also, and so you know its hard to just bang flop a cat unless its a Central nervous system hit. But the Fireball is a perfect balance on cats for killing power (not too much) and fur damage with the SP bullets. Its my gun of choice hunting my "cat spots", and will handle the ocassional coyote with a well placed shot.
But I love the 221 FB, and its so much fun to shoot because it always make me look like a much better shot than I am /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Good hunting, Sleddogg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
6mm06, I know you shoot some cats also, and so you know its hard to just bang flop a cat unless its a Central nervous system hit. But the Fireball is a perfect balance on cats for killing power (not too much) and fur damage with the SP bullets. Its my gun of choice hunting my "cat spots", and will handle the ocassional coyote with a well placed shot.
But I love the 221 FB, and its so much fun to shoot because it always make me look like a much better shot than I am /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Good hunting, Sleddogg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
utahheadgear
New member
I'm just going to be the devil's advocate here and say that if you cannot cleanly kill even a 50 pound coyote with a .223 or even a .221 FB you might have a bit more of an accuracy problem than you do a caliber problem.
Now I've never shot a 50 pound eastern coyote so I don't have any first hand experience with that, but I have tipped over a slug of western coyotes at moderate ranges with a 17 HMR and never had any trouble anchoring them right there. I have also witnessed, and beleive it happens alot, that guys believe they have made a perfect hit when the hit wasn't even close to perfect. I believe that alot of folks would blame the gravitational pull of the moon as the cause of a miss or poor hit long before they would actually admit any fault of their own.
I simply don't believe these stories of hitting coyotes square in the chest with a .223 and having them just waltz off like they had never been hit. I think if we had all of those type stories on video we would see poor shot placement, and severe lack of acceptable accuracy, not a lack of killing power from whatever the weapon of choice.
It does stand to reason that a bigger gun MIGHT be more effective in thick cover to help anchor animals that are poorly hit because of fast action, but I wouldn't bank on that personally.
Hit 'em in the lungs, and they will die quick, no matter the weapon of choice.
Just my two cents.
Now I've never shot a 50 pound eastern coyote so I don't have any first hand experience with that, but I have tipped over a slug of western coyotes at moderate ranges with a 17 HMR and never had any trouble anchoring them right there. I have also witnessed, and beleive it happens alot, that guys believe they have made a perfect hit when the hit wasn't even close to perfect. I believe that alot of folks would blame the gravitational pull of the moon as the cause of a miss or poor hit long before they would actually admit any fault of their own.
I simply don't believe these stories of hitting coyotes square in the chest with a .223 and having them just waltz off like they had never been hit. I think if we had all of those type stories on video we would see poor shot placement, and severe lack of acceptable accuracy, not a lack of killing power from whatever the weapon of choice.
It does stand to reason that a bigger gun MIGHT be more effective in thick cover to help anchor animals that are poorly hit because of fast action, but I wouldn't bank on that personally.
Hit 'em in the lungs, and they will die quick, no matter the weapon of choice.
Just my two cents.
sleddogg
New member
utahheadgear - You can play devils advocate all you want, but you don't want a Fireball in your hands when a 50+ pound dog is weaving into your treestand in a tangled mess of Northeast forest.
utahheadgear, I respect everything you say, and agree to a point..........but if you ever hunted a 50 pounder in a thick Eastern woodlot filled with brush trees and foliage, you would quickly learn the inadeqacies of a Fireball. I have learned first hand /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
By my picture above its obvious a Fireball kills on a broadside double lung. That shot is far and few between here 'ole bud /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Don't have to debate it, as I have lived here and hunted more years than I care to remember. When I use a 243 the dogs are knocked down pronto in this Eastern woods style hunting where shot placement can be less than Ideal. Same man using a 221 will do a bunch of trackin'......... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
If we wait for a perfect shot here, the few we call will be long gone. Ask the heavy hitters on this board about hunting here.
A big coyote lungshot will die fine with a 223 under 100 with a 60 grain SP here in New England, but you just can't count on an open shot on a posed coyote. Sadly things just aren't that black and white here.
I have hunted out West though, and could get by with the Fireball most times.........little dogs, open country........different world here. Almost a shotgun only world, just once in awhile, that dog is just standing in an opening in the forest 60 yards away.
Here is the deal in the Northeast........If you want to kill coyotes here(with any consistancy at all), be ready to caliber up, practice like a maniac, and take whatever shot the coyote gods give you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
utahheadgear, I respect everything you say, and agree to a point..........but if you ever hunted a 50 pounder in a thick Eastern woodlot filled with brush trees and foliage, you would quickly learn the inadeqacies of a Fireball. I have learned first hand /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
By my picture above its obvious a Fireball kills on a broadside double lung. That shot is far and few between here 'ole bud /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Don't have to debate it, as I have lived here and hunted more years than I care to remember. When I use a 243 the dogs are knocked down pronto in this Eastern woods style hunting where shot placement can be less than Ideal. Same man using a 221 will do a bunch of trackin'......... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
If we wait for a perfect shot here, the few we call will be long gone. Ask the heavy hitters on this board about hunting here.
A big coyote lungshot will die fine with a 223 under 100 with a 60 grain SP here in New England, but you just can't count on an open shot on a posed coyote. Sadly things just aren't that black and white here.
I have hunted out West though, and could get by with the Fireball most times.........little dogs, open country........different world here. Almost a shotgun only world, just once in awhile, that dog is just standing in an opening in the forest 60 yards away.
Here is the deal in the Northeast........If you want to kill coyotes here(with any consistancy at all), be ready to caliber up, practice like a maniac, and take whatever shot the coyote gods give you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
utahheadgear
New member
Okay, so here I go again, being the devil's advocate, and believe me this isn't personal, I'm just looking for some discussion, but if what you say is true and you are in "Almost a shotgun only world" then why not use your shotgun accordingly (taking shots at moving game through heavy cover with a rifle is not exactly high percentage, but a shotgun is built for that) except when "just once in awhile, that dog is just standing in an opening in the forest 60 yards away" then hit him in the smoker with your 221 FB or .223 and kill him DRT. I don't see how a shot gets much easier than standing in the open at 60 yards.
After all "A big coyote lungshot will die fine with a 223 under 100 with a 60 grain SP here in New Englsnd".
I'm just having some fun really /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif, but I do believe that I have a point. You don't need a monster gun, you need good accuracy and shot placement, and the same holds true no matter the game or the part of the country or world you are hunting, and most people that claim a .223 or .221 or whatever won't get the job done on a coyote are the same ones that can't admit that they made a poor shot.
Just my two cents. Well...I guess that makes $0.04 cents total. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
After all "A big coyote lungshot will die fine with a 223 under 100 with a 60 grain SP here in New Englsnd".
I'm just having some fun really /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif, but I do believe that I have a point. You don't need a monster gun, you need good accuracy and shot placement, and the same holds true no matter the game or the part of the country or world you are hunting, and most people that claim a .223 or .221 or whatever won't get the job done on a coyote are the same ones that can't admit that they made a poor shot.
Just my two cents. Well...I guess that makes $0.04 cents total. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
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utahheadgear
New member
By the way Sleddog. That dog in the photo does look like a monster. I'd probably have to shoot at least 3 Utah coyotes to equal him in weight. Way to smoke 'em!!
sleddogg
New member
I understand Western hunting, as I did it. Hard to get an Eastern flavor without hunting here. I'll try to help.
If you hit a BIG coyote with less than a 243 at a quartering angle, he's runnin'. 223 and down is marginal on all but broadside shots. BUT a 243 loaded with an 85 grain bullet will take a dog like this down at any angle. That is a fact. A FACT.
Hope this clarifies things for you, and when he is in the open at 60 yards, it doesn't mean he is broadside, hence the need for a powerfull caliber.
All I can say is I have hunted West, have you hunted here? This would make things perfectly clear /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Hope some of coyote and landscape pics help you understand what we deal with here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Hunting here is a BLAST, just different! I love it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Good huntin'utahheadgear /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
If you hit a BIG coyote with less than a 243 at a quartering angle, he's runnin'. 223 and down is marginal on all but broadside shots. BUT a 243 loaded with an 85 grain bullet will take a dog like this down at any angle. That is a fact. A FACT.
Hope this clarifies things for you, and when he is in the open at 60 yards, it doesn't mean he is broadside, hence the need for a powerfull caliber.
All I can say is I have hunted West, have you hunted here? This would make things perfectly clear /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Hope some of coyote and landscape pics help you understand what we deal with here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Hunting here is a BLAST, just different! I love it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
Good huntin'utahheadgear /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
I.O.N.Doyle
New member
Never hunted Easterns but looking at the size of the dogs you have in your photos I gotta believe .243 would be my minimum. Seems whenever the topic of minimum calibers comes up they are usually discussed with two types of shot placements - "perfect" and "poor". There is a whole world of grey area out there and since these are hunting situations and not benchrest perfect is seldom acheived. While near-perfect placement will often drop whatever I have aimed at I would still like to have enough gun to make up for the times when marginal placement is what was available either through my poor shooting abilities or conditions.
Dave Allen
New member
hey sledd...looking at the bottom photo..look's like your straining ?? you may need to start pumping iron to handle those big coyote's ???...now my two bit's...i'm sure i will never hunt a coyote that's that large.."however" i will say i would use at least a 22-250 or 243...we can all talk perfect shot's whatever...i would prefer the pure knockdown power on coyote's that large...
utahheadgear
New member
Different strokes for different folks I guess. Those are some big 'ol coyotes, thats for sure. Thanks for sharing the photos Sled.
I hope you all knock down a load of fur this coming season, no matter which gun you chose.
Later.
I hope you all knock down a load of fur this coming season, no matter which gun you chose.
Later.
Coyote_Blaster
New member
I have chatted with a guy in Alaska that hunts wolves with a 22-250. He said that it will take a 120# wolf no problem. I would have to say that shot placement is the most critical point. All I know is that I wouldn't hunt a wolf with my .204 thats for sure. LOL
Jay Johnson
New member
With all of that done and said my guess is the .223 kills more coyotes in this country that any two other calibers combined or maybe all of them.
PAyotehunter
New member
I love small calibers and like to be different. I often use a .17 Rem for deer so I bet you can imagine my opinion on this, but I agree with sleddog though. A 22-250 as a min. for coyote hunting.
Sleddog,
I will be sending you a PM later today.
Thanks
Sleddog,
I will be sending you a PM later today.
Thanks