Anybody using a Fireball for Coyote?
- Thread starter Dogwood Creek
- Start date
VAnimrod
New member
sleddogg;
The only difference in your scenario and one's that I've been in is the choice of bullet. If the Fireball is in hand and it's a facing shot at that range, I take it; the TSX (or prior to that the X to XLC) punches through plenty and the bolt gets worked QUICK to see if I can get, or a buddy with something else, can get the trail dog.
Premium bullets make a difference with this hunting just like they do with using smaller than preferred calibers (in years past) for larger game.
That said, yeah, the .243 just wrecks 'em.
Having been backed up by others with .22-250s (and I have one, too... I dote on it heavily...), and by .243/6mms... I have nothing but affection for those larger rounds. They make it almost easy.
Put them in tandem with a .221/.222/.223 class round, and that's a heckuva duo.
The only difference in your scenario and one's that I've been in is the choice of bullet. If the Fireball is in hand and it's a facing shot at that range, I take it; the TSX (or prior to that the X to XLC) punches through plenty and the bolt gets worked QUICK to see if I can get, or a buddy with something else, can get the trail dog.
Premium bullets make a difference with this hunting just like they do with using smaller than preferred calibers (in years past) for larger game.
That said, yeah, the .243 just wrecks 'em.
Having been backed up by others with .22-250s (and I have one, too... I dote on it heavily...), and by .243/6mms... I have nothing but affection for those larger rounds. They make it almost easy.
Put them in tandem with a .221/.222/.223 class round, and that's a heckuva duo.
coyote control
New member
Wished I lived in MA.......big dogs for sure.
Nice pic's!
Nice pic's!
coyote control
New member
sleddogg,
This is an interesting topic here. I going to side with you on your caliber choice, especially after seeing the big dogs that you have there.
I too own a Fireball (XP100), but I have never shot a coyote with it and the reason being, I feel it's to light for anything past 150 yds. So I have always gone with the 22-250 and just love it.
Just a thought...wonder how the 22-250 would do on the dogs you have there, using the Barnes 53 gr?
This is an interesting topic here. I going to side with you on your caliber choice, especially after seeing the big dogs that you have there.
I too own a Fireball (XP100), but I have never shot a coyote with it and the reason being, I feel it's to light for anything past 150 yds. So I have always gone with the 22-250 and just love it.
Just a thought...wonder how the 22-250 would do on the dogs you have there, using the Barnes 53 gr?
Handgunr
New member
Sleddog,
Big or small, to me any coyote is a trophy.
As far as "big dogs" taken with the Fireball, admittedly, I currently don't have one. I have had several in the past. Mostly XP's.
I really don't need to own one to argue the point that it's fully capable to take a coyote efficiently based on it's ballistics, if "shot placement" is proper.
I've taken coyotes and fox (as well as my hunting partner) with .222's & .223's for many years, as millions of other hunter's have. That's both in rifle and handgun configurations.
And the .223 in a 14" Contender barrel is a substantial bit less powerful than the Fireball is out of a rifle barrel, using the same bullet weights.
Regarding favorite coyote rounds used, I'd almost bet that the .22-250 is probably the top cartridge regarding coyotes, and the .223 a close second. And, yes, I'm sure the .243 is right up there as well as the .25-06 and others.
Not inferring that this is the issue in your case, or flaming anyone, but substituting cartridge power, for shot placement is the proverbial "fool's folly".
Sometimes hunter's have to pass up on those iffy, less than perfect shots, and I have. I think most will, and do.
A good portion of the time, if I can remain patient, a decent opportunity, more than likely, will present itself. I've taken all kinds of shots at various angles, like many have, and I've had the good majority drop on the spot. But, once in awhile, some, I've had to track a little ways. Usually, a very short distance.
But, that being said, it hasn't been the cartridge that made that decision at all as I've used many, including my .308. Even with restraint, it was shot placement not always being optimum, and I'll freely admit that.
Agreeing with you & all, things can't always be absolutely perfect, but choice of caliber rarely makes up the difference.
Based on what you were saying though, comically, if the .243 was the "Coyote gun of doom", then (if progression follows suit) the .308, .30-06, or .300 Win Mag should be, theoretically, the Coyote "Angel of Death", "Grim Reaper", or something. Kinda like Tim the Toolman...."more power"...lol.
Don't get me wrong, I honestly respect your opinion, and hunting experience, as you obviously produce results, and that's ultimately what counts......
Mainly, it's a "what works for you" kind of thing......but, that's not everybody, and the majority of hunters I know, and speak to in forums like this one, would greatly disagree with you on this point.
I don't know if you're hunting for pelts or what (as I don't believe it was mentioned) but the .243 (as with other larger calibers) more than likely, wouldn't be too pelt friendly, would it ?
As a daily passtime (that's turned into a business somewhat) I do a lot of load development for various calibers, and the Super Jet chambering that I've mentioned, was built (and based) after a large "in depth" survey of various calibers in the small .22 centerfire arena.
A rimmed cartridge was more or less preferred for the single shot action of the Encore, so it was a good choice. My efforts beared fruit, as this short barrel gun is a very sweet shooter and short wood's gun.
It's ballistics are twin, or on par with the .221 Fireball, and, like I mentioned before, very much the .222, but only falling slightly short of the .223, on half the powder charge.
Bullet velocity is bullet velocity no matter what cartridge it's shot from....that's a given.
Substituting bullet design in a smaller caliber, for the choice of a larger caliber entirely, can make it almost appear an equal based on visual reactions alone.
An example to what I'm saying is, knowing full well that the .243 is more powerful (for the most part) than the .22-250, using the right type of bullet for the task at hand can produce visual results that are "as devastating", or "more so", than the more powerful caliber.
The reason for that result is the animal's reaction to the destruction that that specific bullet style created. Almost like a small grenade going off in their chest
An explosive bullet, like the VMax, in the .22-250, in comparison to a regular softpoint in the .243, will produce far more devastating DRT's than the other.
Using the same style bullet in the .243 will make it even more so.
So choice of bullet, along with the velocity necessary to allow it to perform properly, can be used in any "reasonable caliber" to take coyotes.
Sorry for the novel.....again.
Take care & good hunting,
Bob
Big or small, to me any coyote is a trophy.
As far as "big dogs" taken with the Fireball, admittedly, I currently don't have one. I have had several in the past. Mostly XP's.
I really don't need to own one to argue the point that it's fully capable to take a coyote efficiently based on it's ballistics, if "shot placement" is proper.
I've taken coyotes and fox (as well as my hunting partner) with .222's & .223's for many years, as millions of other hunter's have. That's both in rifle and handgun configurations.
And the .223 in a 14" Contender barrel is a substantial bit less powerful than the Fireball is out of a rifle barrel, using the same bullet weights.
Regarding favorite coyote rounds used, I'd almost bet that the .22-250 is probably the top cartridge regarding coyotes, and the .223 a close second. And, yes, I'm sure the .243 is right up there as well as the .25-06 and others.
Not inferring that this is the issue in your case, or flaming anyone, but substituting cartridge power, for shot placement is the proverbial "fool's folly".
Sometimes hunter's have to pass up on those iffy, less than perfect shots, and I have. I think most will, and do.
A good portion of the time, if I can remain patient, a decent opportunity, more than likely, will present itself. I've taken all kinds of shots at various angles, like many have, and I've had the good majority drop on the spot. But, once in awhile, some, I've had to track a little ways. Usually, a very short distance.
But, that being said, it hasn't been the cartridge that made that decision at all as I've used many, including my .308. Even with restraint, it was shot placement not always being optimum, and I'll freely admit that.
Agreeing with you & all, things can't always be absolutely perfect, but choice of caliber rarely makes up the difference.
Based on what you were saying though, comically, if the .243 was the "Coyote gun of doom", then (if progression follows suit) the .308, .30-06, or .300 Win Mag should be, theoretically, the Coyote "Angel of Death", "Grim Reaper", or something. Kinda like Tim the Toolman...."more power"...lol.
Don't get me wrong, I honestly respect your opinion, and hunting experience, as you obviously produce results, and that's ultimately what counts......
Mainly, it's a "what works for you" kind of thing......but, that's not everybody, and the majority of hunters I know, and speak to in forums like this one, would greatly disagree with you on this point.
I don't know if you're hunting for pelts or what (as I don't believe it was mentioned) but the .243 (as with other larger calibers) more than likely, wouldn't be too pelt friendly, would it ?
As a daily passtime (that's turned into a business somewhat) I do a lot of load development for various calibers, and the Super Jet chambering that I've mentioned, was built (and based) after a large "in depth" survey of various calibers in the small .22 centerfire arena.
A rimmed cartridge was more or less preferred for the single shot action of the Encore, so it was a good choice. My efforts beared fruit, as this short barrel gun is a very sweet shooter and short wood's gun.
It's ballistics are twin, or on par with the .221 Fireball, and, like I mentioned before, very much the .222, but only falling slightly short of the .223, on half the powder charge.
Bullet velocity is bullet velocity no matter what cartridge it's shot from....that's a given.
Substituting bullet design in a smaller caliber, for the choice of a larger caliber entirely, can make it almost appear an equal based on visual reactions alone.
An example to what I'm saying is, knowing full well that the .243 is more powerful (for the most part) than the .22-250, using the right type of bullet for the task at hand can produce visual results that are "as devastating", or "more so", than the more powerful caliber.
The reason for that result is the animal's reaction to the destruction that that specific bullet style created. Almost like a small grenade going off in their chest
An explosive bullet, like the VMax, in the .22-250, in comparison to a regular softpoint in the .243, will produce far more devastating DRT's than the other.
Using the same style bullet in the .243 will make it even more so.
So choice of bullet, along with the velocity necessary to allow it to perform properly, can be used in any "reasonable caliber" to take coyotes.
Sorry for the novel.....again.
Take care & good hunting,
Bob
Handgunr
New member
Quote:
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Boy am I glad the .17Rem. didn't get mentioned. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Amen.......
My partner hunts with one and drops coyotes like they were post malled......but, let's just ignore that one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
Bob
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Boy am I glad the .17Rem. didn't get mentioned. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Amen.......
My partner hunts with one and drops coyotes like they were post malled......but, let's just ignore that one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
Bob
GC
Well-known member
Handgunr,
Did you take the time to read any of this link?
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...SID=#Post432727
Quote:
Pushing them too fast, especially at closer ranges, won't allow the bullet ample "time in target" to perform it's magic.
Sounds odd, yes, I know, but even the most frangible bullet will pass right through an animal if shot at too close a distance, and/or at such a higher velocity.
Handgunr,
I'm going to call you on this quote from the 55 grain .243 thread. This is the second time I've seen you say this. The first time here on this thread. Respectfully, I'll disagree. Bullet makers have produced video of some pretty stout big game bullets that begin the expansion process with the first inch or two of impact. Certainly the very lightly constructed varmint bullets do not just pass through without expansion because they are moving "too fast and don't have ample time in target." Fact is many experienced shooters observe the exact opposite effect. Often the lightweight varmint bullets fully expand and begin the break up process more quickly the faster you push them, to the point of complete disintergration within a very few inches within the target. It is possible to push certain very lightly jacketed bullets so fast with the wrong twist rifle as to cause them to actually come apart in the air and not reach a target intact. Slowing them down considerably as in a reduced load may cause them to perform more like a controlled expansion slug and give them more complete penetration without the massive blow-up caused by the high velocity.
Did you take the time to read any of this link?
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...SID=#Post432727
Quote:
Pushing them too fast, especially at closer ranges, won't allow the bullet ample "time in target" to perform it's magic.
Sounds odd, yes, I know, but even the most frangible bullet will pass right through an animal if shot at too close a distance, and/or at such a higher velocity.
Handgunr,
I'm going to call you on this quote from the 55 grain .243 thread. This is the second time I've seen you say this. The first time here on this thread. Respectfully, I'll disagree. Bullet makers have produced video of some pretty stout big game bullets that begin the expansion process with the first inch or two of impact. Certainly the very lightly constructed varmint bullets do not just pass through without expansion because they are moving "too fast and don't have ample time in target." Fact is many experienced shooters observe the exact opposite effect. Often the lightweight varmint bullets fully expand and begin the break up process more quickly the faster you push them, to the point of complete disintergration within a very few inches within the target. It is possible to push certain very lightly jacketed bullets so fast with the wrong twist rifle as to cause them to actually come apart in the air and not reach a target intact. Slowing them down considerably as in a reduced load may cause them to perform more like a controlled expansion slug and give them more complete penetration without the massive blow-up caused by the high velocity.
Last edited:
Quote:
Quote:
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Boy am I glad the .17Rem. didn't get mentioned. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Amen.......
My partner hunts with one and drops coyotes like they were post malled......but, let's just ignore that one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
Bob
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Thank goodness you didn't bring it up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Quote:
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Boy am I glad the .17Rem. didn't get mentioned. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Amen.......
My partner hunts with one and drops coyotes like they were post malled......but, let's just ignore that one /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
Bob
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Thank goodness you didn't bring it up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Handgunr
New member
GC,
You can call me on it, I don't mind at all.
I've read bit's & pieces of many links here, but I don't need to read that particular link to understand that a bullet's "time in target" is a physical "real issue".
I honestly hate blowing my own horn, but I've taught these topics in police ballistic's college courses for many years, and apparently the FBI thinks it's a real issue as well......they qualified me back in the mid-80's as an instructor using this stuff. As much as I hate schoolwork, I had to write paper's on stuff like this...didn't love it much.
Most of this study resurfaced when we had to attend the Sniper/Observer classes a few years later. We had to understand wound ballistics and what given rounds would do to flesh and/or bone. Federal Cartridge sent in their finest to conduct the ballistic classes and it was a wake up call for many.
The "TiT" theory (yeah it was funny then too) has the same effect whether the bullet has a higher frangibility, or not. Just to one extent or another depending on bullet construction. The difference is usually slight.
The more frangible bullet will react (expand) faster (which it's designed to do), all else being equal, but any bullet style, or design, pushed beyond it's normal velocity parameters will not perform as intended.
One reason why you see Sierra list the "best" bullet performance velocities for each bullet in their manuals. All bullets in Sierra's manuals have a "high & low" velocity range "for optimum performance", and they are quite wide.
To get a round to a certain velocity at a given range, naturally it will have a much greater velocity at the muzzle, and at any point in between.
These "higher" velocities at closer ranges will almost make a very frangible bullet perform much like a regular bullet will at farther ranges (similar wound appearance), if you get my point. The speed of the frangible bullet is going so fast that it's "time in target" is much less, and just as it's starting to open, or mushroom, and react to the flesh it's passing through, it's already out the other side.
Now I'm considering this issue based on coyote's, but let's say a deer, or other larger target was hit at those closer ranges. The result would be much different as the target would be larger, or thicker, and the time in target would be longer allowing more reaction time to it.
I know that you believe that the faster a frangible bullet is pushed, no matter what, the more explosive it is, and that is true to a large extent, within certain speeds.
I'm referring to very fast speeds encountered at very close ranges, maybe out to 40-50yds.
Faster is better, when it comes to explosive bullets, and most would think, if I push it faster, it'll be even more explosive. Yes....to a point.
Once the speeds (which normally occur closer to the muzzle) are encountered, the time in target issue comes into play. Bullets can't do "all things" at "all ranges", and at "any velocity"...I think that's something we all understand.
Everything takes time, even if it's milliseconds, and whether it's a frangible bullet, or one of normal construction (thicker jacket, or harder core), they both open at given rates based on their velocities and the target encountered. In the real world, things change when you hit bone, or encounter other obstacles, but to compare "apples to apples" you have to measure everything on a level surface.
Oh, if you were initially referring to the thread, "55gr bullets in the .243", yes, I've read it and did you notice "Purplecoyote's" last post;
Quote:
Ive taken 2 yotes with my 243 and 58gr vmax. The distance was about 50yards. The entrance hole small and exit about the size of a quarter.That was factory loads. Im loading the 58 gr vmax with 40 gr of W748 and shooting 3/4 in at 100.
Rifle is CZ bolt action.
Thats my only yotes so far and they were about 15 seconds apart.
Daryl P.
Daryl's experience is exactly what I'm referring to.
Where that VMax might've possibly detonated inside a coyote at 100-150yds, and if a pass through occurred, blow a large exit wound, at his encountered (close) range, it sliced through the coyote leaving a "quarter sized" hole.
The bullet spends a lot more time in target at 100-150yds, than it does at 25 or 50, and although speed can be a contributing factor to a large point, the target encountered, it's size or mass, bones, etc., all have a major bearing on how the bullet performs.
One reason why the VMax's work so well for coyotes and fox, they usually fragment completely within the animals at normally encountered ranges.
Trying to convey my point, and based on what I've mentioned, "if" the target being hit is consistently the same, like ballistic gelatin for instance, there is a "sweet spot" at chosen ranges regarding a particular velocity and bullet performance.
This is kind of using the bullet as a constant, and matching the velocity to the intended target and range.
Sometimes I'll get a pass through with my .22-250, but it's rare if the range is a little longer. Anything inside of 100-150yds, or closer, it get's less predictable, and pass throughs are more frequent. At 50yds or so, the exits, although slightly larger than the entrance hole, aren't much larger at all.
Anything inside of 50yds., and if no bones are struck, my experiences have been similar to Daryl's. Struck bone will make major changes "right now".
In classes they used to quote that "1/4" of bone equals 2" of flesh" regarding wound ballistic's, so many variables exist in the field that don't in the lab's.
Sorry so long winded.....
Take care,
Bob
You can call me on it, I don't mind at all.
I've read bit's & pieces of many links here, but I don't need to read that particular link to understand that a bullet's "time in target" is a physical "real issue".
I honestly hate blowing my own horn, but I've taught these topics in police ballistic's college courses for many years, and apparently the FBI thinks it's a real issue as well......they qualified me back in the mid-80's as an instructor using this stuff. As much as I hate schoolwork, I had to write paper's on stuff like this...didn't love it much.
Most of this study resurfaced when we had to attend the Sniper/Observer classes a few years later. We had to understand wound ballistics and what given rounds would do to flesh and/or bone. Federal Cartridge sent in their finest to conduct the ballistic classes and it was a wake up call for many.
The "TiT" theory (yeah it was funny then too) has the same effect whether the bullet has a higher frangibility, or not. Just to one extent or another depending on bullet construction. The difference is usually slight.
The more frangible bullet will react (expand) faster (which it's designed to do), all else being equal, but any bullet style, or design, pushed beyond it's normal velocity parameters will not perform as intended.
One reason why you see Sierra list the "best" bullet performance velocities for each bullet in their manuals. All bullets in Sierra's manuals have a "high & low" velocity range "for optimum performance", and they are quite wide.
To get a round to a certain velocity at a given range, naturally it will have a much greater velocity at the muzzle, and at any point in between.
These "higher" velocities at closer ranges will almost make a very frangible bullet perform much like a regular bullet will at farther ranges (similar wound appearance), if you get my point. The speed of the frangible bullet is going so fast that it's "time in target" is much less, and just as it's starting to open, or mushroom, and react to the flesh it's passing through, it's already out the other side.
Now I'm considering this issue based on coyote's, but let's say a deer, or other larger target was hit at those closer ranges. The result would be much different as the target would be larger, or thicker, and the time in target would be longer allowing more reaction time to it.
I know that you believe that the faster a frangible bullet is pushed, no matter what, the more explosive it is, and that is true to a large extent, within certain speeds.
I'm referring to very fast speeds encountered at very close ranges, maybe out to 40-50yds.
Faster is better, when it comes to explosive bullets, and most would think, if I push it faster, it'll be even more explosive. Yes....to a point.
Once the speeds (which normally occur closer to the muzzle) are encountered, the time in target issue comes into play. Bullets can't do "all things" at "all ranges", and at "any velocity"...I think that's something we all understand.
Everything takes time, even if it's milliseconds, and whether it's a frangible bullet, or one of normal construction (thicker jacket, or harder core), they both open at given rates based on their velocities and the target encountered. In the real world, things change when you hit bone, or encounter other obstacles, but to compare "apples to apples" you have to measure everything on a level surface.
Oh, if you were initially referring to the thread, "55gr bullets in the .243", yes, I've read it and did you notice "Purplecoyote's" last post;
Quote:
Ive taken 2 yotes with my 243 and 58gr vmax. The distance was about 50yards. The entrance hole small and exit about the size of a quarter.That was factory loads. Im loading the 58 gr vmax with 40 gr of W748 and shooting 3/4 in at 100.
Rifle is CZ bolt action.
Thats my only yotes so far and they were about 15 seconds apart.
Daryl P.
Daryl's experience is exactly what I'm referring to.
Where that VMax might've possibly detonated inside a coyote at 100-150yds, and if a pass through occurred, blow a large exit wound, at his encountered (close) range, it sliced through the coyote leaving a "quarter sized" hole.
The bullet spends a lot more time in target at 100-150yds, than it does at 25 or 50, and although speed can be a contributing factor to a large point, the target encountered, it's size or mass, bones, etc., all have a major bearing on how the bullet performs.
One reason why the VMax's work so well for coyotes and fox, they usually fragment completely within the animals at normally encountered ranges.
Trying to convey my point, and based on what I've mentioned, "if" the target being hit is consistently the same, like ballistic gelatin for instance, there is a "sweet spot" at chosen ranges regarding a particular velocity and bullet performance.
This is kind of using the bullet as a constant, and matching the velocity to the intended target and range.
Sometimes I'll get a pass through with my .22-250, but it's rare if the range is a little longer. Anything inside of 100-150yds, or closer, it get's less predictable, and pass throughs are more frequent. At 50yds or so, the exits, although slightly larger than the entrance hole, aren't much larger at all.
Anything inside of 50yds., and if no bones are struck, my experiences have been similar to Daryl's. Struck bone will make major changes "right now".
In classes they used to quote that "1/4" of bone equals 2" of flesh" regarding wound ballistic's, so many variables exist in the field that don't in the lab's.
Sorry so long winded.....
Take care,
Bob
sleddogg
New member
Handgunr - first off, I have to let you know I am impressed with your knowledge of ballistics, and bullet knowledge. It exceeds mine by alot! My knowledge has come only from field experience and trying different rounds and bullet weights on coyotes, bobcats and fox. I have read your post carefully, and have enjoyed them, and have learned some new things. But just a few things I just haven't found to be my experience. I believe our difference in opinions stem from hunting style, as well as shot selection. Also I only skin the big coyotes, rarely the small ones. Pelt damage is of little concern to me, as I just want a dead animal now .
hangunr writes... Quote:
Agreeing with you & all, things can't always be absolutely perfect, but choice of caliber rarely makes up the difference.
This is where we differ in opinion. Caliber indeed makes a difference most of the time in my experience.
Here's why. Called coyotes often present a frontal, often quartering towards you shot. I can shoot a coyote through the front shoulder, and most times get an exit using my 243. Bang-flop.
Same shot with a 221, I have a 3 legged runner. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Its silly to imply caliber doesn't matter when taking called coyotes in the East. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I admit to taking the first reasonable shot presented to me, and don't chance waiting for the perfect shot. Thats what I think makes the difference in our veiws on caliber choice. Calling styles, shooting styles, and terrain. But certainly there is no right or wrong answer, just what works for each individual coyoteman /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif I am an aggressive shooter, so that style demands a big round to make up for less than ideal shot selection, and my admittidly average marksmanship /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Lastly, don't get anywhere near a shoulder with a lightweight Vmax in a Fireball..............unless you have a great tracking hound. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks, Sleddogg
hangunr writes... Quote:
Agreeing with you & all, things can't always be absolutely perfect, but choice of caliber rarely makes up the difference.
This is where we differ in opinion. Caliber indeed makes a difference most of the time in my experience.
Here's why. Called coyotes often present a frontal, often quartering towards you shot. I can shoot a coyote through the front shoulder, and most times get an exit using my 243. Bang-flop.
Same shot with a 221, I have a 3 legged runner. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Its silly to imply caliber doesn't matter when taking called coyotes in the East. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
I admit to taking the first reasonable shot presented to me, and don't chance waiting for the perfect shot. Thats what I think makes the difference in our veiws on caliber choice. Calling styles, shooting styles, and terrain. But certainly there is no right or wrong answer, just what works for each individual coyoteman /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif I am an aggressive shooter, so that style demands a big round to make up for less than ideal shot selection, and my admittidly average marksmanship /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Lastly, don't get anywhere near a shoulder with a lightweight Vmax in a Fireball..............unless you have a great tracking hound. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Thanks, Sleddogg
Handgunr
New member
DC,
Allow me the opportunity to answer your points one at a time, unless my last post was somewhat muddy;
Quote:
Bullet makers have produced video of some pretty stout big game bullets that begin the expansion process with the first inch or two of impact.
-At what velocity/range ? The same ballistic theory holds true here....pushed too fast, or beyond it's workable limits it will perform differently.
Many rounds leave the muzzle beyond the bullet's workable velocity limits (not terminal limits) only to be more useable downrange where normal targets are encountered. This isn't a vast distance.
Quote:
Certainly the very lightly constructed varmint bullets do not just pass through without expansion because they are moving "too fast and don't have ample time in target."
Fact is many experienced shooters observe the exact opposite effect. Often the lightweight varmint bullets fully expand and begin the break up process more quickly the faster you push them, to the point of complete disintergration within a very few inches within the target.
I didn't say they passed through "without expansion". I said it could be very minimal based on their time in target. A bullet can't expand unless it encounters something (flesh as an example). The time within that medium (which speed has an affect on), the size or depth of it, etc., makes a big difference.
Quote:
It is possible to push certain very lightly jacketed bullets so fast with the wrong twist rifle as to cause them to actually come apart in the air and not reach a target intact. Slowing them down considerably as in a reduced load may cause them to perform more like a controlled expansion slug and give them more complete penetration without the massive blow-up caused by the high velocity.
Given bullets (Varmint or SX types), even with their "optimum" rates of twist, can come apart in flight if pushed beyond their velocity limits. One reason why you see the lighter Sierra "Hornet" bullets having such a lower maximum velocity listed in their loading tables. Working within the recommended velocity limits that they impose, and at the optimum rate of twist listed, the bullet performs as intended. Being slower to begin with (and based on those limits), this example might produce more expansion at closer ranges based on it's design limitations.
Short range "time in target" issues, are, and can be, different for each individual cartridge. But it is a reality.
I don't pose a lengthy debate on this or nothing, and everyone is entitled to their opinion as to whether this is a viable issue to them or not.
It's a very "real" issue when it comes to ballistics, which I didn't just pick out of the air (I'm not that creative), and I'm sure you (as well as others) have heard it mentioned before. Usually, anyone that has had anytime with guns or handloading has.
Consider a coyote or fox shot at 25yds, and one shot at 150. Unless bone is struck, you'll realize my point the next time it occurs. Like I said, this issue isn't over a vast distance. Only a few yards. But, it does fall within the distances encountered when hunting.
Just something to ponder next time you run into a similar situation....that's all. Kindly, allow me to bow out.
Take care,
Bob
Allow me the opportunity to answer your points one at a time, unless my last post was somewhat muddy;
Quote:
Bullet makers have produced video of some pretty stout big game bullets that begin the expansion process with the first inch or two of impact.
-At what velocity/range ? The same ballistic theory holds true here....pushed too fast, or beyond it's workable limits it will perform differently.
Many rounds leave the muzzle beyond the bullet's workable velocity limits (not terminal limits) only to be more useable downrange where normal targets are encountered. This isn't a vast distance.
Quote:
Certainly the very lightly constructed varmint bullets do not just pass through without expansion because they are moving "too fast and don't have ample time in target."
Fact is many experienced shooters observe the exact opposite effect. Often the lightweight varmint bullets fully expand and begin the break up process more quickly the faster you push them, to the point of complete disintergration within a very few inches within the target.
I didn't say they passed through "without expansion". I said it could be very minimal based on their time in target. A bullet can't expand unless it encounters something (flesh as an example). The time within that medium (which speed has an affect on), the size or depth of it, etc., makes a big difference.
Quote:
It is possible to push certain very lightly jacketed bullets so fast with the wrong twist rifle as to cause them to actually come apart in the air and not reach a target intact. Slowing them down considerably as in a reduced load may cause them to perform more like a controlled expansion slug and give them more complete penetration without the massive blow-up caused by the high velocity.
Given bullets (Varmint or SX types), even with their "optimum" rates of twist, can come apart in flight if pushed beyond their velocity limits. One reason why you see the lighter Sierra "Hornet" bullets having such a lower maximum velocity listed in their loading tables. Working within the recommended velocity limits that they impose, and at the optimum rate of twist listed, the bullet performs as intended. Being slower to begin with (and based on those limits), this example might produce more expansion at closer ranges based on it's design limitations.
Short range "time in target" issues, are, and can be, different for each individual cartridge. But it is a reality.
I don't pose a lengthy debate on this or nothing, and everyone is entitled to their opinion as to whether this is a viable issue to them or not.
It's a very "real" issue when it comes to ballistics, which I didn't just pick out of the air (I'm not that creative), and I'm sure you (as well as others) have heard it mentioned before. Usually, anyone that has had anytime with guns or handloading has.
Consider a coyote or fox shot at 25yds, and one shot at 150. Unless bone is struck, you'll realize my point the next time it occurs. Like I said, this issue isn't over a vast distance. Only a few yards. But, it does fall within the distances encountered when hunting.
Just something to ponder next time you run into a similar situation....that's all. Kindly, allow me to bow out.
Take care,
Bob
Handgunr
New member
No Sleddog....
I actually agree with what you said....and thank you for your kind words.
My statement wasn't complete, which was my fault/mistake.
Quote:
Agreeing with you & all, things can't always be absolutely perfect, but choice of caliber rarely makes up the difference.
What I was meaning to say, or convey, when I said that was "for poor shot placement". And that was not in reference to you personally, or anyone else's style of shooting or hunting. I'm not like that.
I hunt with the .243 as well as other calibers, and I like them all. I think there is too much, in some cases, and too little in others, but I try not to be too critical. Like I said before, your success shows that you know what you're doing.
It's a "to each his own" kind of thing.
Take care & good hunting,
Bob
I actually agree with what you said....and thank you for your kind words.
My statement wasn't complete, which was my fault/mistake.
Quote:
Agreeing with you & all, things can't always be absolutely perfect, but choice of caliber rarely makes up the difference.
What I was meaning to say, or convey, when I said that was "for poor shot placement". And that was not in reference to you personally, or anyone else's style of shooting or hunting. I'm not like that.
I hunt with the .243 as well as other calibers, and I like them all. I think there is too much, in some cases, and too little in others, but I try not to be too critical. Like I said before, your success shows that you know what you're doing.
It's a "to each his own" kind of thing.
Take care & good hunting,
Bob
chuckaholic
New member
"Consider a coyote or fox shot at 25yds, and one shot at 150. Unless bone is struck, you'll realize my point the next time it occurs. Like I said, this issue isn't over a vast distance. Only a few yards. But, it does fall within the distances encountered when hunting."
The one shot at 25 yards with a varmint type bullet will be much messier.
The one shot at 25 yards with a varmint type bullet will be much messier.
GC
Well-known member
Handgunr,
Thanks for the reply. I take it you did not read the link? I can only wonder why you would type such a reply without first investigating the material in the link. Hopefully you aren't simply dismissing our opinons and experiences.
Without a doubt the bullet companies engineer bullets to perform best at certain velocity ranges and for certain applications. AND, that serves to illustrate my point exactly. A bullet designed and tested to hit, penetrate a few inches, and then come apart for varmint applications at a velocity level of, oh..., let's say from a muzzle velocity of 3,400 down to 2,800 fps will normally do so. At 25 yards the velocity drives that bullet to break up. At 150 yards the bullet may be in its best performance window. At 350 yards the expansion is considerably less. In fact, at 25 yards oftentimes the bullet expands on the hide upon entry and causes a shotgun like wound. The opposite occurs at long ranges in which the velocity levels drop, lets say the velocity is down to 2,200 fps. Now the bullet begins to act as if it's a controlled expansion big game slug. Drop the velocity to 1,800 fps and you may have a solid with near zero expansion. Some guys will download their high velocity numbers to create this effect for smaller game such as a fox to eliminate or lessen fur damage. Also for ranges that are expected to be close.
According to your theory, we brush and timber hunters should actually use the fastest bullet available for our close range shots to eliminate the fur damage. So, a fox hunter here in the brush where shots are under 100 yards would be better off with a .22-250 at 3,600 fps, rather than the .221 Fireball at 3,000 fps or a .22 Hornet at 2,800? You'll have a hard time selling that theory to an experienced hunter with field time. Counter to all my experience, training, and the field autopsies conducted while skinning or examining a kill. Like Sleddog I don't have the luxury of watching a predator for long distances, or allowing them "time in the target zone." I guess that'd be TiTZ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I learned long ago to be a killer. I figure I have less than five seconds after sighting a hard charging coyote in the timber and brush I hunt to anchor him. Mess around much more than that and the odds of collecting him go downhill expotentially. Too much brush, terrain folds, chancy wind flow, little visibility, coupled with a fast moving predator and he's in and out within a few seconds. I subscribe to the see em', sight em', squeeze on em' theory! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif We certainly have a difference of opinon and experience. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Thanks for the reply. I take it you did not read the link? I can only wonder why you would type such a reply without first investigating the material in the link. Hopefully you aren't simply dismissing our opinons and experiences.
Without a doubt the bullet companies engineer bullets to perform best at certain velocity ranges and for certain applications. AND, that serves to illustrate my point exactly. A bullet designed and tested to hit, penetrate a few inches, and then come apart for varmint applications at a velocity level of, oh..., let's say from a muzzle velocity of 3,400 down to 2,800 fps will normally do so. At 25 yards the velocity drives that bullet to break up. At 150 yards the bullet may be in its best performance window. At 350 yards the expansion is considerably less. In fact, at 25 yards oftentimes the bullet expands on the hide upon entry and causes a shotgun like wound. The opposite occurs at long ranges in which the velocity levels drop, lets say the velocity is down to 2,200 fps. Now the bullet begins to act as if it's a controlled expansion big game slug. Drop the velocity to 1,800 fps and you may have a solid with near zero expansion. Some guys will download their high velocity numbers to create this effect for smaller game such as a fox to eliminate or lessen fur damage. Also for ranges that are expected to be close.
According to your theory, we brush and timber hunters should actually use the fastest bullet available for our close range shots to eliminate the fur damage. So, a fox hunter here in the brush where shots are under 100 yards would be better off with a .22-250 at 3,600 fps, rather than the .221 Fireball at 3,000 fps or a .22 Hornet at 2,800? You'll have a hard time selling that theory to an experienced hunter with field time. Counter to all my experience, training, and the field autopsies conducted while skinning or examining a kill. Like Sleddog I don't have the luxury of watching a predator for long distances, or allowing them "time in the target zone." I guess that'd be TiTZ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I learned long ago to be a killer. I figure I have less than five seconds after sighting a hard charging coyote in the timber and brush I hunt to anchor him. Mess around much more than that and the odds of collecting him go downhill expotentially. Too much brush, terrain folds, chancy wind flow, little visibility, coupled with a fast moving predator and he's in and out within a few seconds. I subscribe to the see em', sight em', squeeze on em' theory! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif We certainly have a difference of opinon and experience. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
crapshoot
Well-known member
I believe I can show what you are trying to say GC. Here are 2 pics. Both coyotes shot with my 221 fireball. Both using 40 gr Barnes Varminator bullets. (these are great for p-dogs and rabbits but not coyotes) The first was shot at about 250 yrds DRT. You couldn't even find and entrance hole. Only found blood after hauling it all the way back to the truck (and it was a long walk). Link only as the pic is to big.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Lance30/hunt%20pics%2004-05/221coyoteCarp.jpg
This next one was shot straight on at about 25 yrds. Notice the hide is pealed back but the breast bone is still there intact.
WARNING!!! This Pic Is Very Graphic!!! Link Only!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Lance30/hunt%20pics%2004-05/221coyotetonopah.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Lance30/hunt%20pics%2004-05/221coyoteCarp.jpg
This next one was shot straight on at about 25 yrds. Notice the hide is pealed back but the breast bone is still there intact.
WARNING!!! This Pic Is Very Graphic!!! Link Only!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Lance30/hunt%20pics%2004-05/221coyotetonopah.jpg
Displayed Name
New member
crapshoot- I've been trying to follow this but am forgetting things seeing that it is so long. I believe Handgunr said something like inside of 50 yds the frangible bullets at high velocities will stay together but throw in bone contact and all bets are off. Would that peeled coyote have zero bone contact?
I don't have 1/10 the field time of anyone here so I've really enjoyed this thread and I think I've learned a lot. or have I ? I thinks I may be more confused. Just like when I hear one person adamentely argueing calling into the wind and another calling downwind. Ryan
I don't have 1/10 the field time of anyone here so I've really enjoyed this thread and I think I've learned a lot. or have I ? I thinks I may be more confused. Just like when I hear one person adamentely argueing calling into the wind and another calling downwind. Ryan
sleddogg
New member
Displayed Name - don't become disheartened with what you read. Its really all in fun, and everyone is playing nice. But I suppose whats right for you will only be decided by years of callin' and shooting stuff.
Let me muddy the waters even more. Although I don't endorse the 221 Fireball for consistant kills here in the East for many reasons, one of my most graphic kills was with the 221. Using a 55 grain Sierra Gameking at approx 65 yards. He ran about 75 yards and got stuck in a barbedwire fence before he died. A couple weeks later, had an all day track fest using the same load with the 221.
Graphic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/sleddogg/new%20stuff/DSC00123.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/sleddogg/new%20stuff/DSC00122.jpg
Then to make matters even worse in this whole Fireball thing, its easily the most accurate round I have ever had the pleasure to shoot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Let me muddy the waters even more. Although I don't endorse the 221 Fireball for consistant kills here in the East for many reasons, one of my most graphic kills was with the 221. Using a 55 grain Sierra Gameking at approx 65 yards. He ran about 75 yards and got stuck in a barbedwire fence before he died. A couple weeks later, had an all day track fest using the same load with the 221.
Graphic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/sleddogg/new%20stuff/DSC00123.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/sleddogg/new%20stuff/DSC00122.jpg
Then to make matters even worse in this whole Fireball thing, its easily the most accurate round I have ever had the pleasure to shoot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
crapshoot
Well-known member
Displayed name, I didn't do an autopsy, but considering that is the enterance wound, I would have to say that the bullet came apart prior to striking bone. If it had struck bone first, I would expect more damage to the sternum and the shrapnel from the bullet and bone fragments would have perferated the organs inside instead of slashing on the surface like it did. Mind you that this coyote didn't go no where , so there was enough internal damage to anchor it on the spot. Just my theory.
I shot 2 this past weekend with the same bullet combo. Both were exiting coyotes and both received texas heard shots and both were between 75 and 100 yrds. One droped where it was shot and the other was a tad lower and opened it up . BroncoGlenn finished it off with a head shot while it was doing the roundy round. I decided I need to pack more gun if Im gunna have to keep shooting them in the butt.
I shot 2 this past weekend with the same bullet combo. Both were exiting coyotes and both received texas heard shots and both were between 75 and 100 yrds. One droped where it was shot and the other was a tad lower and opened it up . BroncoGlenn finished it off with a head shot while it was doing the roundy round. I decided I need to pack more gun if Im gunna have to keep shooting them in the butt.
Dave Allen
New member
hello...the thread may be sidetracked somewhat now ?? now it's becoming a bullet type-vs-velocity thread ?? "however" i think it's good...i have gained much information from these post's...i hope other's have also... i have a problem with frangible bullet's...sure the right scenerio they work as designed..it doesn't alway's work that way...handgunner has brought a boatload of information...i think that's great...it's really not my position to "butt in" "because" dogwood was only asking about the
"fireball" & i don't have one...my 2 cent's shoot what you like...i have only blown up two coyote's with "varmint" bullet's i learned my lesson quick & moved on...in my limited experiance a solid bullet is much better at close range...& also work's a little way's out...lot's "o" info on this thread !! what a country !!
"fireball" & i don't have one...my 2 cent's shoot what you like...i have only blown up two coyote's with "varmint" bullet's i learned my lesson quick & moved on...in my limited experiance a solid bullet is much better at close range...& also work's a little way's out...lot's "o" info on this thread !! what a country !!