Anybody using a Fireball for Coyote?

Often we get into debates arguing largely about just one or two components of what is in reality a very complicated equation.

Terminal ballistics depend on a number of interrelated factors, bullet caliber, shape, construction, momentum (mass x velocity), sectional density, energy potential of the bullet at impact, etc.

Change any factor and the others will also change, sometimes a lot, sometimes a little. Changing calibers has a huge effect because so many of the other factors are (usually) changed as well.

Terminal ballistics also depend on the target itself, where and at what angle the bullet hits the target, density, thickness of the animal (as presented), amount and density of bone encountered, distance to vital organs, proximity and damage or shock to CNS components, etc.

There is no ONE "simple" theory that does an adequate job of predicting real world results. Time in Target (TiT) is a good explanation as far as it goes, but there are a number of underlying factors that must be accounted for to make it useful (as Handgunr alluded to).

Frangible bullets have a (generally speaking) narrower range of effectiveness than other types. Within that range though, they are awsome killers, but, push them too fast with too much spin and they can come apart without hitting anything (blowups).

With just a little less retained energy, either because of a slower MV, slower twist, or increased range (slower velocity and twist), they will fragment at the first touch of anything. I've had them disintegrate hitting a paper target.

Drop retained energy just a little more, and the bullet will fragment inside the animal, unless it hits bone and is caused to shed all it's energy instantaneously. When that happens we call it a splash.

Keep dropping the velocity and spin rate, and eventually the bullet won't come apart at all, even though that's what it's expressly designed to do. This is readily apparent if you shoot small long range animals (PDs). A .223 55gr Vmax bullet that turns them into "red mist" at 100YDs, will still kill them at 550YDs, but there's no "blow up".

My 7mm mag with 100gr HPs will drill near pencil holes in coyotes out to 150YDs or so, unless I hit bone. At 600YDs it makes a real mess of them.

Any other bullet will have a similar "progression of effectiveness", depending on many factors, sometimes velocity at impact has a great effect, sometimes animal density/size, usually a wide combination of factors.

There is (generally speaking) a wider latitude over a bullet's effectiveness with a larger caliber, and more solidly built bullet, but as with all things ballistic, it's a trade off.

Know your gun. Know your load. Know your prey (anatomy as well as habits). Know your own abilities.

There is no "magic solution".
 
crapshoot - I believe you are right with your explanation of the splash effect on your coyote. I've read and seen enough pictures on here to know it must happen without bone contact. Up to this point I've only had a few splash entry wounds and they have all hit bone. I just had never seen a picture like yours with the sternum exposed like that.

sleddog - I am in no way disheartened by the complexity and seemingly endless variation in how most hunters decide to tackle this interest we share. I believe it is that lack of decisiveness in equipment, method, and strategy that has us all hooked. We are all looking to progress,share, teach, and learn. There will always be something new out there or an old trick that we have never heard of. Cheers Predator Hunters! Great thread. Ryan
 
Well GC,

Quote:
You'll have a hard time "selling" that theory to an experienced hunter with field time.


In an attempt to simplify what I'm trying to convey, (not "sell", as you aptly put it), most everything you mentioned in your last post falls pretty much in line with what I've said.
You keep comparing "field" conditions with what I was trying to explain, and field conditions aren't always predictable as we all know. There's no ryhme or reason trying to justify things in field conditions as they aren't very consistent. And we, as hunters, have to deal with them as they are.
I've probably got as much "field time" as the next guy, and at 50yoa, I've been doing "it" (hunting), since I was legal....maybe 12 or so here in NY, so you do the math. By the way, probably 90% of the state is rural agricultural fields and forested, not the NYC affect that most think when they hear of NY. Difference between city & upstate...or way upstate.

After looking back. maybe I've explained it poorly, or failed to convey the "time in target" theory clearly, and if that's the case, I apologize, but I'll try and give it another go.

My reason for even bringing this issue up was to try and explain the reason for close shots with frangible bullets that don't really blow out the opposite sides of animals shot with it. A random occurrence that happens during "field condtions".
Many times when that occurs at close ranges, many hunters using an explosive bullet wonder why it didn't destroy the off side of the animal, only leaving a slightly larger hole than the entrance. Not everyone can grasp the reasoning behind why it happens, so I thought I'd try and explain it somewhat.
I'm sure you had them yourself, you know, those entrance and exit wounds that seem "only slightly different in size" while using bullets like the VMax, Nosler BT's or Sierra BK's. If you haven't, with any length of hunting time, it's rare. I think we all have.
It's those shots where no bone is struck, and that are at close range and don't blow up on exit as expected, usually leaving just two slightly seperate holes in size. That raises a question to some, I'm sure, and of which I was trying to explain.

Quote:
Handgunr,
Thanks for the reply. I take it you did not read the link? I can only wonder why you would type such a reply without first investigating the material in the link. Hopefully you aren't simply dismissing our opinons and experiences.


Yes, I did read a good portion of the thread you mentioned. It's several pages long, but I grabbed the ghist of what you were getting at. No, I wasn't dismissing anyone's opinion's or experiences...being closed minded to someone else's opinion's or experiences doesn't help me learn/understand, or help anyone with an issue.
I'm far more interested in solving a problem, than trying to impress anyone....I would've been a very poor firearms teacher/instructor over the years if I had been like that. Rather than try to tout theory and book specific's all the time, I, like you, have my opinions as well. But I'm glad that some of them are based on what I've learned, both in the classroom and the field.

Quote:

A bullet designed and tested to hit, penetrate a few inches, and then come apart for varmint applications at a velocity level of, oh..., let's say from a muzzle velocity of 3,400 down to 2,800 fps will normally do so. At 25 yards the velocity drives that bullet to break up.



Based on the way you're looking at it GC, you might think so. But, as you've mentioned, I think you're mainly looking at field conditions here. Okay, using your example with a muzzle velocity of 3400fps Let's look at the last sentence....
"At 25 yards the velocity drives that bullet to break up."
I know you're thinking that "thinner jacket", "higher velocity", no brainer, gotta explode....not true, not even with field conditions. Field conditions are not a constant, sometimes yes, sometimes no, maybe more so one than the other at times.
I'm trying to explain the issue which raises the curiousity as to why a frangible bullet doesn't perform the same maybe on those rare instances. Two slightly different holes, entrance & exit.
Based on your post regarding inches of flesh for expansion, let's say just for arguement's sake, that at 3400fps muzzle velocity, a 55gr. VMax in .224 will penetrate 6" at 100yds. before totally rupturing. And in comparison, Hornady's standard bullet in the same weight will net you 8 or 10 inches before doing the same.(these are just random figures considering a consistent and standard medium being struck....they're probably more)

At 25 yds. (using your reference), if a target is struck at that range, it's time to target from the muzzle is approx. only .023 of a second. From muzzle to the 100yd. mark is approx. .095 of a second, more than 4 times longer. Consider that when an animal is struck at that 25yd. mark, the bullet is covering (still using your example) 1 ft. of distance in .0003 seconds. In other words, the bullet, travelling at that speed, would cover a 6" distance (approx. a fox's chest) in .00015 of a second during free flight. Considering expansion properties involved, and the braking/energy shed effect they have on slowing the bullet when something is struck, unless that bullet is extremely light & frangible (55gr as an example), or a bone is struck, it'll more than likely exit due to it's velocity & time in target. How it exit's, or in what condition, is the point of arguement.
Using the previous penetration figures as a guide, and considering a consistent medium being struck,
the more frangible bullet will slow within that medium quicker due to expansion occurring sooner, and expotentially, slowing it down faster due to that expansion. The standard bullet does the same but at a slower rate, thus keeping a higher rate of velocity, and in turn, more penetration.
Based on what I've stated, at closer ranges, if no bone is struck, and depending on the thickness of the flesh being hit, you'll see this "time in target" issue occur.

Depending on the medium being used, expansion can vary greatly, this was why I mentioned that field results and lab results are vastly different. But, as a ballistic guide, you have to revert to the "even keel" of lab specific's. Ballistic's and field conditions are two different area's, but you can't have one without the other in the world of hunting. Ballistic's can explain why or how a bullet performs during field conditions, all else being known.

Quote:

At 150 yards the bullet may be in its best performance window. At 350 yards the expansion is considerably less. In fact, at 25 yards oftentimes the bullet expands on the hide upon entry and causes a shotgun like wound.



GC....I agree with the range and performance issue here, as well as bullet's blowing up on a hide's surface....I've seen it happen. Maybe not at 25yds., but closer to 50 or 60 yds. It was a hunting buddy using his .17 Rem. and I was calling for him. Yes, it did kill the fox, it did leave a gaping surface wound, and it was realized that several shards of jacket actually caused the mortal wound internally. The internal wounding would'nt have killed it so quickly as maybe the detonating affect on the surface of that fox, resulting in a more shock induced death I'd guess.
The bottom line, or moral of the story....he admittedly used a bullet not suited to the task at hand, and maybe guessed that he might have caught grass prior to hitting the fox. Being a tiny highly frangible round to begin with, an undisturbed "muzzle to target" is a "must have" with the little .17.

All that being said, the reason of a bullet blowing up on the hide is more an issue of improper bullet choice, than the performance of a given proper bullet and how it performs within a target/animal.



Quote:
I learned long ago to be a killer. I figure I have less than five seconds after sighting a hard charging coyote in the timber and brush I hunt to anchor him. Mess around much more than that and the odds of collecting him go downhill expotentially. Too much brush, terrain folds, chancy wind flow, little visibility, coupled with a fast moving predator and he's in and out within a few seconds. I subscribe to the see em', sight em', squeeze on em' theory! We certainly have a difference of opinon and experience.




That first sentence is kinda scarey there GC /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.....but I get your point.
From the sounds of the area and terrain that you're hunting, a shotgun might be the ticket over a rifle in most cases, but that's just me. Sounds almost like hunting the Adirondack Mtn's up here in NY, or Allegheny State Park/Lost Nations' over near me. Thicker than thick. Been there, done that. Shooting can be within feet, not yards. I don't use a shotgun often, but I have.
Normally in tight quarters, I 'll use one of my handguns (thus the handle), setup with a quick dot sighting system to take fox & coyotes. Using a handgun in such conditions isn't the handicap that most would think. Shooting in either direction, one or two handed, is much easier, and often times, I hunt from tree's giving myself a slight edge. After shooting PPC for many years, it's just more natural for me. Kinda like a wingshooter.
Using one of my .44Mag's, and good homecast hollowpoints, it'll usually drop them on the spot on out to 100yds.


Well, rather than hi-jacking this thread any further, it's my belief that the .221 Fireball is ample enough for coyotes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif. But, that being said, in some cases "more is better" and I'm easy, I'm down with that too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif.

Take care,
Bob
 
nmleon,


Well put..............could'nt have said it better myself.

Besides, I thought I was the king of the "long posts /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif"

Also, I like the "Surface of the Sun, AZ". Been out near Flagstaff passin' though while in the USAF. Hell was cool compared to that place /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif.


Take care,
Bob
 
Quote:
[Re: CatShooter]
Use the right tool for the job at hand. Sure you can pound with a wrench but a hammer works better. Also, you have a moral responsibility to dispatch the Deer humanly which does not mean stretching it to prove a point. If you do stretch it to prove a point its a sign of immaturity on your part trying to feed your ego.



Waddaya pickin' on me for - I didn't say it was OK to shoot deer with a .221 Fireball??

Hell, I don't shoot deer with nothin' - I hate venison!
 
Well Handgunr,
You seem to perhaps have taken offense? I hope not, the verbage as in " selling " wasn't meant as an insult or to imply anything. Just plain language. One of the problems with the flat screen, and, unfortunately I'm not skilled enough to always convey the context of the sentence accurately. I enjoy a spirited debate and can participate with enthusiasim, maybe too much occasionally. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Quote:
You keep comparing "field" conditions with what I was trying to explain, and field conditions aren't always predictable as we all know.



Of course I compare field conditions to your examples/theory. I don't hunt in a labratory.

Quote:
My reason for even bringing this issue up was to try and explain the reason for close shots with frangible bullets that don't really blow out the opposite sides of animals shot with it. A random occurrence that happens during "field condtions".
Many times when that occurs at close ranges, many hunters using an explosive bullet wonder why it didn't destroy the off side of the animal, only leaving a slightly larger hole than the entrance. Not everyone can grasp the reasoning behind why it happens, so I thought I'd try and explain it somewhat.



Tell you what I have seen. A frangible bullet which hits, penetrates and begins coming apart causing massive destruction early in the wound track, and, in the middle of the animal. Because of bullet break up the bullet loses a great deal of integrity, weight and mass. The resultant exit (if there is one) is small, close to the entry size because only a button of bullet is left to exit. Quite common with the Nosler Partition big game bullets. Often you hear hunters complain they don't care for the Partition because it doesn't expand and leaves a small exit. It does expand, and often quite violently in the first 1/2 to 2/3 of the penetration channel. After the front half has expanded, folded back upon the shank, then it may shear off leaving only about 50% - 60% of the core which is now basically a caliber size wadcutter to exit. The entry and exit are very close to the same size and comparable, yet, there is massive damage done in the middle. Not that the bullet is traveling too fast to expand and pencils right through the animal like a FMJ. It did expand, just not in a manner that many think of as the classic "mushroom" with the offside exit 1 1/2 times the size of the entry. I personally wouldn't choose a conventional cup and core 150 grain .30-06 at 2,900 fps for my timber hunting to minimize blood shot meat loss on whitetail deer hunts here in the Ozarks. While the 150 kills like lightning on broadside shots, if a shoulder is struck it detonates and causes massive meat damage. It also doesn't penetrate as well on a raking shot as a heavier bullet traveling some slower, ie. 180 grain at 2,700 fps. The problems of over expansion and bloodshot meat are caused by violent over expansion, not under expansion as you suggest this bullet might be prone to.

I said:

Quote:
I learned long ago to be a killer. I figure I have less than five seconds after sighting a hard charging coyote in the timber and brush I hunt to anchor him. Mess around much more than that and the odds of collecting him go downhill expotentially. Too much brush, terrain folds, chancy wind flow, little visibility, coupled with a fast moving predator and he's in and out within a few seconds. I subscribe to the see em', sight em', squeeze on em' theory! We certainly have a difference of opinon and experience.




To which you replied:

Quote:
That first sentence is kinda scarey there GC .....



I hope that was said with humor in mind. Otherwise, that's not cool, don't make it out to be something it isn't. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Quote:
From the sounds of the area and terrain that you're hunting, a shotgun might be the ticket over a rifle in most cases, but that's just me.



You haven't read much of my post or you would know I use a shotgun for probably 50% of my stands. Have for years, and I too have been hunting for awhile. Ballistics and bullet construction are interesting subjects. I will readily admit, the white coat of the lab while neccesary, doesn't interest me. What does interest me is how the things perform on game under hunting conditions in the field with actual experience. Otherwise, we may mutually and respectfully agree to disagree on the matter of TIT. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Tell you what this post has done for me if nothing else........made me load up some rounds for the old neglected 221 Fireball /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif I remounted a good 3 x 9 Nikon on her, and boresighted today. If tomorrow is good weather wise, I'll sight in.

Got a good load from Wishbone with some 50 grain Sierras and RL 7 that is zippin' right along.

Predator season starts in 2 weeks, so maybe I'll give the FB another shot (literally) on some of my more open set-ups.

Its too good of a round not to shoot, and as I mentioned WWAAAAYYYY back at the beginning of the post, makes up into a great bobcat round for me.

Thanks, Sleddogg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
No doubt it will kill coyotes just fine when things are right. You already know that from experience. It's when things aren't right... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Sleddog,

Before you get too interested in RL7 (no offense Wishbone), take a good serious look at Hodgdon's Li'l Gun. It's done wonders for velocity and accuracy. I picked it for my Super Jet after perusing my Fireball load data.
Couldn't get a decent build up velocity from RL7 in my smallish case. Li'l Gun was the overall velocity/accuracy king, and I tried just about every powder listed for the Fireball....just a thought. I'm using a 40gr. VMax currently, and it's done a great job so far. I've got a 1 in 14 twist, so I can range a little ways on weight if need be.

GC,

No offense taken from the term "selling", no I wasn't serious of the "killer" issue (humor), and sorry, no I haven't read that many of your posts, especially the one's regarding using shotguns.
It was just a thought and a suggestion. If you have been using one, then I guess we're on the same page of music there.
I don't get rattled all that easy and I actually find things more humorous than most. Cops always have had a cynical (and dry) sense of humor, and even after retirement, it's still there.

Not to get off on another tangent, based on your Nosler Partition experience, and the mention of a FMJ, it brought something else to mind.
Pushed fast enough, you can get a FMJ bullet to do the same thing (wound result similar to the Nosler Partitions) based on hydrostatic shock alone.
Saw some of those Desert Storm post mortem photos (Sniper buddy) after Iraqi's were hit with 7.62 and 50 cal hardball rounds. Yeah it was kind of sick, but we were used to it from Sniper training.
Guaranteed, it'd make you a believer in ripped flesh and hydrostatic shock if you already weren't. (Another one of those lab theories....more humor /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

I respect your decision to adhere to your field conditions & experiences....go with what you know.
I choose to do both, as I spend much of my time making those bullets, handloading them and testing them on various types of mediums. I fabricate both jacketed and cast bullets that I use for various types of hunting and target use. Both rifle and handgun.
Handloads.com/Bullets

I use both (lab or field cond.'s), because when you have a question in one area, it can only be answered "factually" in the other.
Field conditions leave you with results, good or bad, it's a testing ground.
If your results are good, great, good to go. If it's bad, being able to pinpoint the problem using a little "lab knowledge" helps a whole lot. If you're using loading manuals, and applying what data you've read, you're using "lab derived" data.
Whether we know it or not, I think we all use both to one extent or another.

Regarding lab and field conditions......I believe.....
......."if you ignore one, you're bound to pay for it in the other".

Oh well.....good topic & debate.

Take care,
Bob
 
No offense taken. It is an excellent load in my rifle. I'm using LilGun with the 40gr Bergers (15.7gr) and it is excellent accuracy wise, but I find it to be a very dirty powder. The velocity is real good according to the book but I don't own a chrony so don't really know what it's actually doing. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
Wishbone,

The Super Jet that I'm working with is about 9% less case capacity than the Fireball. With a case full of RL7 (compressed book load), I could only get around 3000fps, and accuracy was so-so.
IMR4227 was great accuracy wise, but again, velocity was barely cracking the 3000fps. range.
Li'l gun shows a maximum charge of 16.0grs. for the Fireball at 3384fps, and this sounds too slow based on what I've seen with it.
At 14.5grs of it, I'm getting 3393fps using a 40gr. VMax in the Super Jet.
My self imposed maximum is 15.3grs at 3480fps. With a strong custom action, and during load development (had no data on the SJ), I loaded all the way to the Fireball's maximum at 16.0grs. The cases were sticky, and the primer pockets got stretched, but the velocity was smokin' at 3620. Too hot to use, but being careful, it showed me where it's limits were.
I'm thinking that you should be able to hit 3500fps. safely with the Fireball (same bullet weight) and Li'l Gun.

I didn't see the dirty burning issue with it though. It seems that any powders capable of good loading capacities in the .410/.357 & .44 Mag's, make good candidate's for the Fireball & Super Jet.

Just my 2.......

Thanks,
Bob
 
theory vs field experiance, don't wan to go ointo the theory side but i have used the 221 fireball on coyotes extensivly. the rifle was a rem. model 7 223 set back to 221 fb.
in the three years i used the rifle as my calling rifle it accounted for 297 coyotes, all were shot with the nosler 40 gr balistic tip at 3625 fps.
the lil rifle was very handy and swung quickly, shots were taken all the way from bayonet range to 150 yards. i rarely set up to where a shot of 150+ yards would present itself.
about a dozen coyotes were shot with a tejas heart shot, none run off and only one needed a follow up shot.

shots taken were heart lung and center of chest straight on and the occasional tejas heart shot.

the bottom line, a poorly placed shot is a poorly placed shot, a raking shot even with a good bullet can peal the side of a critter.

take a look at a balistic chart in the back of a reloading book, compare the load velocity with that of a 223 with the same bullet in the 221 fb. look at diffrent ranges and compare the numbers. if your mimimum speed number for a clean kill on a coyote is 2500 fps from a 223, lets say 250 yards, use the same number for the 221 fb, it may be 200-225 yards. bullets are made of lead and copper, they don't know what they were fired from.



knowing you're gun/bullet limits and skill level and having confidense in both is more important than any other factor.
 
Handgunr- thanks for the info. The 40gr and Lil'gun load I just developed this spring so I haven't hunted with it yet. If the actual speed is more than than what the manuals say then I'm OK with that too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I went to 16grs while testing but the groups opened a little and I figured the speed difference was negligible so just settled on the 15.7 gr load. Time will tell.
Good hunting! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
John
 
foxhunter1 - 300 coyotes in 3 years.........wow, thats impressive, as it took me about 25 years to reach the 300 mark here in the Northeast /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Guess you can evaluate a round quickly shooting so many dogs.

What would you estimate your average dog weighs out there? Just trying to figure out the dramatic difference in our results. I have literally never bang flopped a coyote with a Fireball even when hit perfect. Are those little Noslers that good?

Quote:
the rifle was a rem. model 7 223 set back to 221 fb.
in the three years i used the rifle as my calling rifle it accounted for 297 coyotes, all were shot with the nosler 40 gr balistic tip at 3625 fps.




What powder were you running to get that velocity out of the 221 Fireball? I have troble making 3600 with my 223 shooting 4o grainers, man I must be missing something /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

There is a post running about 40 grainers now, and fellas are braggin' on the 40 grain Noslers now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Don't know if it would make that much difference, as 40 grain Vmaxes honesty didn't cut it for me, and I tried in the FB and 223.
 
if you check the accurate arms loading manual you will find a load of 20.5 gr's of aa 1680 with a 40 gr bullet at around 3600 fps. the lil model 7 gave just a smidge more velocity than my cz or remington model 700.
i was hunting south west new mexico, las cruces west to lordsberg , north to silver city and back to las cruces via hatch.
there was a 10.00 per head bounty at that time and they were on a high clcle.
the average coyote weighed 20-30 pounds with a rare dog going 40 pounds. i did shoot one dog in colorodo that weighed 52 pounds and another in west texas about the same.
49ht7j6.jpg
 
Quote:
Handgunr- thanks for the info. The 40gr and Lil'gun load I just developed this spring so I haven't hunted with it yet. If the actual speed is more than than what the manuals say then I'm OK with that too! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I went to 16grs while testing but the groups opened a little and I figured the speed difference was negligible so just settled on the 15.7 gr load. Time will tell.
Good hunting! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
John



John & Sleddog....

The velocities I mentioned out of the Super Jet were shot over my chrono, and just by happenstance, I ran them over my father in law's as well. He had his new Chrony here at the same time. Checking mine against his for consistency, they were within 10fps. of each other end to end, and the farther one was reading lower by the 10.
Close enough for " handgrenade's and horseshoes".

I don't know why Hodgdon's numbers are so much lower, and the Fireball case is only 8.5-9% bigger than mine, so it's not a huge difference. I'm sure it's just that their test equipment is different, but 3384fps.(their max.) from 3550-3600, is a bigger difference than I'd expect.
New .223 data from Hornady's manual, as well as some others, show velocities up around 3700-3800fps. with the 40gr. bullets. My old (Sierra) data shows 3500-3600, but there are new powders available now, so who knows.

AA1680 (mentioned) is a great powder for the Fireball, and I've got a batch of the predecessor W680 (Winchester discontinued it). I haven't run it through my SJ yet, but the I think the "listed" numbers were less than Li'l Gun (for the Fireball data), and to be honest, I had a limited time to run the loads through that I did and failed to get to it. That doesn't mean that's it's slower based on the book numbers, and Foxhunter....I'll give it a try and see.

4198, 4227, H110, 2400, RL7 and Li'l Gun were the powders I tried. I just recently loaded some W296, but they're sitting on the bench waiting for a slow day.
I'd have to check through my targets and chrono data, but 2400 got me up into the 3200+range, as did H110. 4198 was good accuracy wise, as was 4227, but 4198 was down around 2900+fps, and 4227 was 3000-3100, without actually referring to my notes. Case capacity is tough with the bulkier powders. Can't get enough in to make a difference, and pressure isn't really an issue there.

Li'l Gun was the overall winner in velocity, and as luck would have it, accuracy was excellent. Usually, I like to see powders that fill the case, at least, up to the bottom of the neck. These loads are "usually" more consistent, and powder positioning with some isn't an issue regarding ignition.
With Li'l Gun being "less filling" it really doesn't seem to be a problem.

Now my gun & chambering is a custom "one off" based solely on my cartridge designs/modifications alone. A duplicate of my dummy cartridges is made from carbon rod and the chambers are cut using an EDM (no reamers used) machine. My chamber isn't overly tight, but I'm sure when Mike (OTT) made it, it was tighter than the usually accepted SAAMI tolerances. Also my Encore barrel is only 20" in length, and is a straight 1" bull.

It appears that Hodgdon is a little conservative on their load data, and liability wise, rightly so. That's understandable. After using their manual's for years, in comparison with the other's, this soon becomes obviously apparent. Never the less, I've learned to approach their max. loads (naturally) with caution, but with careful monitioring, I will often times go beyond them and still remain safe with my particular gun(s) .
Naturally, each gun is different. Measuring case webbing, overall case stretching, sticky extraction, etc., are all accepted methods. Primer monitoring is usually believed to be an initial way of an indication of high pressure signs, but to be honest, it's one of the last. Flat, or cratered primers (depending on the brand) usually inicate that you're more than likely well beyond. Using all the factors together is the best way to go.

Take care you guys,
Bob
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top