Anybody using a Fireball for Coyote?

Maybe I need my eyes checked? I read that post 3-4 times and saw 12-26-00 everytime. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
I guess once you read something wrong the first time you keep seeing the same thing regardless of what is actually there.

Jack
 
Use the right tool for the job at hand. Sure you can pound with a wrench but a hammer works better. Also, you have a moral responsibility to dispatch the Deer humanly which does not mean stretching it to prove a point. If you do stretch it to prove a point its a sign of immaturity on your part trying to feed your ego.
 
I would use a .221 Fireball on coyote at close range say a hundred yards in. But I think it is an ideal fox/bobcat gun. It makes a lot more sense than using say a .220 Swift or a .243 on a fox. Like they say right tool for the right job.
 
Personally, having hunted stuff in New England and the mid-Atlantic, I can see the difference in the size of the bodies, and the vegetation.

I'd still use the .221 in either locale; but V-Max/Accu-tips down here in VA/NC, and 53 gr. TSXs up in New England (VT and NH).

If I got a bit more worried about the 'yotes, well, that's what the 12 gauge is for... or the .22-250.

The .221, loaded right, will do anything that a .223 factory load can/will do, and there's a PILE of stuff killed with those loads every year.

You do your part, and the rifle/cartridge has the easy job.
 
I love the 221 Fireball above all other rounds I own for accuracy and quiet, no recoil performance.

But mostly I like dead coyotes. If the 221 Fireball had proven as effective of a coyote killer as some of the other rounds I shoot, I'd always use it.

Its not, so I don't.

223 and FB for comparison. Where the 223 really out-muscles the 221 is when the heavy more effective bullets are used. Plus all Fireballs have a slow twist rate. I beleive most are 1 in 14. Made for shooting 40 grainers.

im000720.jpg
 
sleddog;

No disagreement on the .223 having more horsepower if you reload it. Capacity is capacity.

As to not performing well with heavier bullets, you are also correct.

However, mine, and at least two others that I am very well acquainted with, handle 50 to 53 grain bullets JUST fine, and in the 3000+ fps range. Move a TSX out at 3k, and inside of 250, not much is going to be of a match for at... at least of 'yote/small deer size and down.

That said, you REALLY have to place the first shot well. Something that's easy to do with the .221, but it ain't no beginner's cartridge.
 
I've used the fireball for coyotes and it kills them dead I live in upstate new york we use 223 and 222s and 204s and 243s,the 221 with the new powders like lilgun and rel 7 gets pretty close to the 222 and 223 I'm shooting 50grn vmax with 15grns of lilgun and getting 3200fps and 3600 with the 40s and 16grns of lilgun.
 
Quote:
I love the 221 Fireball above all other rounds I own for accuracy and quiet, no recoil performance.

But mostly I like dead coyotes. If the 221 Fireball had proven as effective of a coyote killer as some of the other rounds I shoot, I'd always use it.

Its not, so I don't.

223 and FB for comparison. Where the 223 really out-muscles the 221 is when the heavy more effective bullets are used. Plus all Fireballs have a slow twist rate. I beleive most are 1 in 14. Made for shooting 40 grainers.




Well Amigo,

Not to flame you but, although you've used the .221 Fireball, (and yes the .223 does have more poop than the Fireball) and regarding your photo and the reference to size difference, there's not a vast enough amount of velocity difference to make it "not worth" using, or really a "less efficient" coyote dropper.

Oh yes, and most rates of twist regarding the .22 centerfires, were and have been based greatly on 1 in 14", and 1 in 12".
The 1 in 14" twist will stabilize anything from 35gr to 55 gr bullets very well. The 1 in 12" rate of twist will allow a little heavier bullets, maybe 60grs. or so.
Go over that and you have to drop into the 1 in 10, 9 or 8 inch rates.

Regarding the case size differences;

I'm using a case in a custom .22 Super Jet that has a 9% less case capacity than the .221 Fireball. It's based on the Remington Jet blown out to fit the Super Jet chamber. More or less, a .256 Win Mag necked down to .22 caliber. Hodgdon's powder data for the maximum listed load of 16.0grs. of Li'l Gun using a 40gr Vmax is 3384fps. in the Fireball.
Using the same powder and bullet in a maximum load in my Super Jet is 15.3grs. at 3520 fps.
The case is smaller, so how can that be ?
Case design, shoulder angle and all, have a lot to do with it. It's more efficient with less powder.

Here's a link to a photo of the comparison of a .22-250, .223 and the .22 Super Jet. Handloads.com

It's much smaller than the .223, but comparing maximum loads, it equals, or (in some cases) surpasses the .221 Fireball, and the .222, and only lacks a couple of hundred feet per second on the hottest .223 loads with the same bullet weight. And it does it all on half the powder charge of the .223.

I'm using the most accurate loads in the Super Jet, which are less than max., at 3393fps. Equal in velocity to the Fireball's (Hodgdon's) listed maximum's at those speeds, it kills very quickly on my field tests with it. I would have to say that it kills every bit as quick as the .223. Maybe even the .22-250 in some cases, if you discount the excessive carnage that the .250 can produce.

Shot placement is key, over most cartridge considerations, other than the most ridiculous choices.
And, yes the .243 has it's place as well, but it's far from the "lighting strike" coyote killer that you make it sound.
My calling partner carries one on many of our hunts, and although it's mostly a good long range gun, in close, the bullet is still travelling fast enough where it's "time in target" doesn't provide enough for the bullet to perform with most brands.
I visually witnessed two kills in recent years, one on a coyote at 125yds., and another on a fox at 300yds. + or -.
The coyote was hit behind the shoulder at a slight quartering angle, and the bullet exited behind the offside last rib. The round past cleanly through the animal and sucked a good sized wad of the coyote's innards out the exit wound.
That coyote ran another good 150yds, before piling up, and thank god it was on a foggy plowed field, because had it not been, we might not have found it for sometime.
The fox was skewered diagonally from centered chest entrance, to flank exit, and it ran off to pile up under a tree and still needed a swift clubbing before dying.

What I'm trying to get at here, is that it isn't necessarily the more powerful round that is the most efficient killer. It has more to do with bullet construction, and the proper velocity for it to function as intended. Choosing a bullet that will fragment inside the animal at normally encountered ranges, more or less, is the optimum to strive for. Too short with just about any caliber and the bullet can exit and make a mess, too long and it'll still stay inside. Depending on the rounds you use, you can choose them to overlap somewhat regarding effective ranges, which is what I do.
My .22-250, even with fragible VMax's, will blow through most anything inside 100yds. Get beyond 150yds, and closer to 200, and it rarely exits anything. I shot a chuck in the head at 223yds. with it and although it made mush out of the head, it still stayed in there.
I smacked a coyote with it at 210yds. broadside and it dropped DRT after a very short spin.

I hunt in pretty much the same geography as you do, okay I have a little more open area's, you have a little more woods, but it's very similar and the coyotes in both area's are good size.
I've personally seen two large males at 62 and 67 lbs. taken, but our averages are around low to mid 50's maybe.

I built that short barrelled Super Jet for close woods and distances out to 200yds. or so, and I've hunted the same close woods with handguns which carry even less energy, but drop them pretty decently.

Oh well......
Kind of like the old saying, "It's not the size of the gun, it's the powder behind the bullet".


Take care,
Bob
 
Handgunr - Thanks for the great info, as it was good reading, and I learned a bit. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

My experiences have not paralled yours though. My old 243 loaded up with 85 grain Sierra Gamekings have pretty much bang flopped coyotes 10 to 15 deep each year for more years than I'd like to remember here in the Northeast. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do notice a dramatic difference in killing power between my 221 Fireball and 243 Winchester.

Could you be so kind as to post a pic or two of some of the big 50 pound coyotes you guys have shot up there, and show me where to aim, as maybe I'm just not hittin' 'em right /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Good hunting, Sleddogg
 
Between the .221 and the .243?

Uh, YEAH, there is a DRAMATIC (heck, put mine in bold, too) difference.

Between the .221 properly loaded and the .223, esp. factory? Not that much difference in the field at all, IMHO.

Of course, ymmv.

Then again, I'll certainly agree with Handgunr on one thing:

BULLET CHOICE!

Small varmints up to small 'yotes, bobcats, foxes, etc = V-max/Accu-tip loads.

LARGE 'yotes (and deer, where legal... like NC) = TSX.
 
In my experience if you're going to try to compare a .22 caliber cartridge with the .243, you have to go all the way up to the .22-250 with the heavier bullet weights to come close to the .243 in actual on target terminal performance. The .22-250 does a number on coyotes too. I always preferred the 55 - 60 grain bullets in the .22-250. But the .243 is an absolute hammer on coyotes with 70 - 87 grain bullets. To suggest the smaller case .22 cartridges have the same effect is counter to all logic.
 
Ain't no one suggesting that the small .22s are anywhere in the same league with the .24 bores. That'd be plumb dumb...

What is being debated is whether the .221 loaded right is adequate for 'yotes.

I contend that it is; as much so as the .222/.223.

Others say it ain't.

YMMV...

What ain't being objected to is that the .243 and 6mmRem are 'yote hammers.
 
"What ain't being objected to is that the .243 and 6mmRem are 'yote hammers."

I can object to that. There is no guaranteed yote hammer. Sometimes they are just not ready to die, no matter how perfect the shot placement or how big the caliber. I have seen perfect shots with larger calibers still having the coyote sucking air an hour later.

Jack
 
Exceptions exist to every rule.

I've seen the same thing with 80 lbs does THUMPED by stuff as large as .338 WMs.

As a given though, a .243" will put a most serious hammering on anything from 'yote size on down.
 
Quote:
I can object to that. There is no guaranteed yote hammer. Sometimes they are just not ready to die, no matter how perfect the shot placement or how big the caliber. I have seen perfect shots with larger calibers still having the coyote sucking air an hour later.



Absolutely correct, but that is simply the exception, not the rule. 243 folds big coyotes at odd angle like no 224 caliber can. Use a lighter bullet (not Vmax) and you will simply be ammazed.

If you don't what to listen to one fella, hear it from yet another guy that has used both...GC said:

Quote:
In my experience if you're going to try to compare a .22 caliber cartridge with the .243, you have to go all the way up to the .22-250 with the heavier bullet weights to come close to the .243 in actual on target terminal performance. The .22-250 does a number on coyotes too. I always preferred the 55 - 60 grain bullets in the .22-250. But the .243 is an absolute hammer on coyotes with 70 - 87 grain bullets. To suggest the smaller case .22 cartridges have the same effect is counter to all logic.



Lots of fellas are quick to tout the 221 and other small calibers, but quite simply, as Jack stated waaaaay back in the beginning of this post

Quote:
I consider the 223 or 222 as the minimum for coyote and marginal for eastern coyotes. They work pretty good for little western coyotes. In the east the 243 is my minimum.

I love the 221 but it is light even for western coyotes.



221 will yeild marginal results in the East . It will make you a great tracker though. Come on guys, you can't tell me you all make prefect shots. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif I've been huntin' here a long time and know it just ain't so.

So use what you want, but if you pick the 221 Fireball, don't be surprised when they bolt if the shot isn't textbook. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Handgunr, still waiting on some pics and shot placement advice on those big 50 pound NY coyotes you fellas shoot up there with those little pea shooters. Not flamin' you, just looking to be enlightened. Thanks, Sleddogg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
sleddogg;

I'm not in disagreement with you on this in large degree.

The .221 up through the .223 are FAR more likely to give marginal performance than the .24 bores. Fact.

The small bores just aren't run-of-the-mill, shoot-'em-wherever rounds; no way, no how.

The smaller the diameter and the lower the energy level, the better the bullet, bullet placement, and shot selection have to be.

I.e. a HARD raking shot that'd be a DRT with a .243 and 75+ grains of bullet is generally a no-go with a .221 and even a 53 gr. TSX.

Premium bullets make up a little difference, and a TSX in a Fireball, loaded hot, puts it on par with a factory softpoint in the .223. But, no bullet, velocity, or other equipment solution is going to make them the equal or even close to the 6mm clan.

Am I limiting myself by using the .221? Yes, in range, in shot selection, in bullet placement, and in latitude as to what fodder I can feed the rifle and get away with using it.

That I know.

Of course, I still pretty much limit myself shot selection wise even when I drag the .22-250 out... or even something larger.

I try REALLY hard to make the first shot count most and be a VERY good shot, each and every time I squeeze the trigger. Sometimes that means I pass up on shots. So be it. And, yes, sometimes that means I track. So be it.

The .221, or in many cases, the .223; ain't a yeoman's cartridge for 'yotes. It's really more critical than that.

For someone that wants to just put the crosshairs in the middle of fur and any hit is a good one (come on, there are more than a few of us in that category, and that ain't a flame), the .24 caliber class is a very good minimum.
 
Sleddog,

Oh, I'm sure you're hitting them just fine......dead is dead, and if you're getting DRT's on a regular basis, you're doing your part I'm sure.

I'm not comparing (and never did) the .243 to the Fireball as far as energy, but what I was saying was that the Fireball is "a very capable cartridge within it's limitations".

(That "bold thing" is cool......./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif)

Personally, what I try and do is map the cartridges velocity parameters to realistic hunting ranges, then match the bullet performance to fall within those high's & low's.
My partner was using that same bullet as you mentioned when he got the pass through, run & drop, on that last coyote. It was as perfect a shot as was possible at that time & existing conditions.

Sleddog...after looking at your posts, and knowing that the guys love pic's (as well as you), I had to go digging to find my photo's of what you asked. They're not the greatest, but here you go.

Here's a photo of that kill.
It was a large headed male that ran 54lbs (minus half of his guts.....lol). I'm holding the coyote's head, and at 6'1" and 260lbs., after looking at the photo, it does make the dog look smaller next to my fat a$$. He doesn't have that large coat of fur that your photo's have, but it was taken on the last day of the season, so maybe he lost most of it by then. On the other hand, we've recently spotted two males within our area's that have a premature coat thickness which is very (fox like) reddish color. They appear huge at range, so who knows.

Handloads.com/Dennis' Coyote
We shot the photo on the entrance wound side and you can see how much blood the animal spewed. The opposite side was too gross to take a photo of (definitely not PETA friendly). That .243 really destroyed his pelt.

Here's a photo of another hunting buddy's 62lb. bowkill that was taken over near Retsof, NY. He later got a 67lb. coyote with his slug gun that had a broken snare on his neck.
Handloads.com/Doug's Bowkill
This photo, with the fall foliage, almost looks like it was professionally taken. I've got the 8X10 original in my shop, and point to it often when folks stop and question the idea of coyote's in the area. This coyote's coat was also early season thin, but was showing signs of winter thickening.

My own personal thought's regarding the .243 (I use one in the 15" Encore) is that one of the polymer, or "ballistic tipped" bullets, in a lighter weight, usually perform much better as far as fragmenting within the coyote and not exiting.
My favorite brand recently has been the Hornady VMax's.
I have the Nosler's and the Sierra BK's, but the VMax's are offered in several more weights, and closer to what I like to use normally. Just a thought but, Hornady offer's an 85 or 87 VMax in the 6mm's that will work with the load you have.
You might have to tailor your load velocity a little though, don't know there. I, like you, have preferred Sierra's over the years, and although lately I've found the VMax's to be more accurate for me overall, my loyalty to Sierra is still there never the less.

My favorite load currently used in my Encore is the Sierra 55gr. BK at 3550fps. It duplicates the 55gr. 22-250 load out of my rifle, and has very close ballistic properties with a little higher BC rating. The Encore barrel just likes the Sierra's a little better I guess.
I've taken a fox with it at 240yds, and suffered no pass throughs. But, like my .250, it will pass through chucks within 100-150yds absolutely destroying them. When rimfire season only is in full swing, it's a handy tool to use.

Each one of the rounds we mentioned earlier have their limits in short range, and long range performance, and matched with the right bullet, they can all perform very well on coyotes.
What I don't understand is the reference (not an exact quote) you mentioned that "field" shots on coyotes with the Fireball might be okay, but that if "woods" shots were taken, you hoped "they" were good at tracking.
In my experience with coyotes, most woods shots encountered were at closer ranges than in the field. Quite a bit so. And usually, in the field, ranges have a tendency to be longer due to the quarry, (more than likely) being spotted much earlier on it's way to a call. Not always so, but more likely.

Back to point,
Not that I don't have my limits on the low end of the cartridge choices either, but like Jack mentioned earlier, some guys think the .22 Hornet is enough . Maybe for them, it is. It really depends on several factors, but the Fireball's energy is sufficient to get the job done if shot placement is good.


Sorry so long winded, just my 2 cents worth.....

Take care,
Bob
 
Quote:
Ain't no one suggesting that the small .22s are anywhere in the same league with the .24 bores. That'd be plumb dumb...

What is being debated is whether the .221 loaded right is adequate for 'yotes.

I contend that it is; as much so as the .222/.223.

Others say it ain't.

YMMV...

What ain't being objected to is that the .243 and 6mmRem are 'yote hammers.




I'm on the same page of music as VA is, and this was my point as well. Not an arguement in relation to the Fireball to the .243 as, to quote VA again, "that'd be plumb dumb".

Using the right bullets, along with good shot placement, the Fireball's velocity levels can produce very capable one shot stops on coyote's.
For one to say that the .223 can, and the Fireball can't, would be nuts, because the small difference in velocity makes very little difference on target.
.243/6mm bullets carry a higher ballistic coefficiency than the .22 caliber bullets in similar weights, and is a long range performer based on this alone. It's a good round, no arguement there...but the issue was whether the .221 was capable, and in my opinion, especially at closer ranges where other cartridges would destroy a pelt, it is very much so.

Take care,
Bob
 
"Using the right bullets, along with good shot placement, the Fireball's velocity levels can produce very capable one shot stops on coyote's."

Being a Hornet user, I would agree with this statement. The bullet is what does the majority of the work when it gets there. That is why I have settled on Barnes 45gr XLC's for my coyote bullet in the Hornet. The XLC seems to move the performance up a notch or two.
 
This has been a fun post, and I have learned a bit. But I still am never gonna pick a Fireball over a 22-250 for Eastern hunting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Handgunr - cool pics and nice dogs, but was looking for all the big dogs shot with the 221 or Jet. Thanks anyway, and I really appreciate you taking the time to pull out those pics for us!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Folks miss the point, as they must not hunt the thick stuff, but all I wanted to convey was the Fireball struggles on less than ideal shots the bigger calibers will knock a big dog down at odd angles.

Dogwood is an Eastern hunter, and will have to shoot some less than ideal shots, or not pull the trigger much. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Here is my ranking on cartridges I have used on coyotes. I have shot only about 10 or 12 with a 221, a good bit more with the 22-250 and 223, and countless with the 243. I always come back to the 243.

243 Win.....Coyote gun of doom
22-250...Very good (very few runners)
223 Remington...adequate
221 Fireball...marginal (perfect shots only please)
222...unknow, as I never used one.

Here is the downfall of the 221 Fireball in a nutshell. I'm hunting last week in a big field in CT. I call in a charging double. Lead dog pulls up at 125 yards facing me, trail dog blows by. I have a great shot on a standing coyote facing me. With my Fireball, I'd pass on that shot, and try to work the dogs in. Chances are I could have got 'em standing broadside at a closer range if I let the stand play out (wind was good), but.........Murphy's law /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Using my 223 loaded with 60 grain SP's loaded hot, gave me the confidence to pull the trigger and know that dog will not go far. I have had the same shot with the Fireball, and spent my morning tracking on 3 different occasions. Same guy different guns. Maybe what I'm saying is little rounds don't work all that well for Me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This dog ( shown below )was 35 pounds, and I was balking based on experience, if he was indeed 50, I'd need that perfect shot with the FB. I guess I've just learned over the years things are rarely perfect with coyotes. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But shoot what fits your terrain and calling style. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Best of hunting, Sleddogg /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif

Picture021.jpg
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top