Ethics?
- Thread starter Lungbuster
- Start date
Q,
It seems that the division between who cares about coyote denning season and who doesn't is not as rooted in ethics as some of us might think it unless our ethics are rooted in our bellies. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
With the rare exception of animals, fish, or birds that are national symbols or those that are considered indispensible, most animals that enjoy widespread consideration and therefore protection are those that are routinely eaten and that have "trophy value".
Deer, antelope, moose, elk, grouse, turkeys, bream, bass, bears, etc. enjoy strict seasons and game management because they are very popular as a food and trophy source. They even enjoy renewable resource status.
Prairie dogs, groundhogs, coyotes, crows, etc. don't enjoy those protections and/or consideration because they aren't considered a food or serious trophy source by mainstream hunters. In fact these critters are considered to be "targets of opportunity" and are usually taken any time the opportunity presents itself (within the law).
There are crossover groups that provide some food interest that enjoy some protection and we could play semantic games forever on those crossover species but that's not the point of the coyote ethics discussion.
The coyote sits firmly at the top or nearly so of the non-food producing group and is even considered by most people to be a great detriment to most if not all of the species that we treasure for food and trophy value.
You can argue until you're blue in the face that the coyote should enjoy the same consideration and protection that the food/trophy group enjoys and you will probably have a few that agree with you but I doubt you'll ever gain many converts.
I wish I could put all this as well as Jay can but I bet that you get the idea.
I've only lived and hunted in one place where coyotes had good enough fur to be considered an income source (Colorado) but even there the coyote hunters I met (quite a few) killed them year around, every chance they got to try to lessen their impact on domestic livestock and the young of food/trophy species and for the sport of it all.
I don't hate the coyote... In fact quite the opposite, I only enjoy hunting deer, elk, and antelope more but I certainly don't have a problem with killing every one I see.
I grew up on a farm and learned, like most farm kids, that liking or even loving an animal didn't stop you from killing them. We killed and ate or sold to be killed an eaten thousands of animals and may of them had names and we had fed, cared for, protected, and nurtured them all their lives. It was just a fact of life that they were a food source. We also killed every predator that actually threatened our livestock and we never thought twice about it and certainly didn't care when their denning season was.
I know that at this point it's just a matter of pride with you and that you are just backing up what you originally said in this thread or what you've said before but it seems pretty obvious that your logic isn't coming across to the masses and that you stand pretty much alone here.
I hope that what I've said above can shed some light for you as to why we do what we do and feel what we feel and why we don't agree with you.
All that being said... You must be some kinda much macho coyote hunter to kill all those coyotes that you do. You are the most successful coyote hunter I've ever had the opportunity to exchange words with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif
Have you ever taken another PredatorMaster hunting with you? You should share some of your hunting expertise. It could be VERY rewarding to you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
$bob$
It seems that the division between who cares about coyote denning season and who doesn't is not as rooted in ethics as some of us might think it unless our ethics are rooted in our bellies. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
With the rare exception of animals, fish, or birds that are national symbols or those that are considered indispensible, most animals that enjoy widespread consideration and therefore protection are those that are routinely eaten and that have "trophy value".
Deer, antelope, moose, elk, grouse, turkeys, bream, bass, bears, etc. enjoy strict seasons and game management because they are very popular as a food and trophy source. They even enjoy renewable resource status.
Prairie dogs, groundhogs, coyotes, crows, etc. don't enjoy those protections and/or consideration because they aren't considered a food or serious trophy source by mainstream hunters. In fact these critters are considered to be "targets of opportunity" and are usually taken any time the opportunity presents itself (within the law).
There are crossover groups that provide some food interest that enjoy some protection and we could play semantic games forever on those crossover species but that's not the point of the coyote ethics discussion.
The coyote sits firmly at the top or nearly so of the non-food producing group and is even considered by most people to be a great detriment to most if not all of the species that we treasure for food and trophy value.
You can argue until you're blue in the face that the coyote should enjoy the same consideration and protection that the food/trophy group enjoys and you will probably have a few that agree with you but I doubt you'll ever gain many converts.
I wish I could put all this as well as Jay can but I bet that you get the idea.
I've only lived and hunted in one place where coyotes had good enough fur to be considered an income source (Colorado) but even there the coyote hunters I met (quite a few) killed them year around, every chance they got to try to lessen their impact on domestic livestock and the young of food/trophy species and for the sport of it all.
I don't hate the coyote... In fact quite the opposite, I only enjoy hunting deer, elk, and antelope more but I certainly don't have a problem with killing every one I see.
I grew up on a farm and learned, like most farm kids, that liking or even loving an animal didn't stop you from killing them. We killed and ate or sold to be killed an eaten thousands of animals and may of them had names and we had fed, cared for, protected, and nurtured them all their lives. It was just a fact of life that they were a food source. We also killed every predator that actually threatened our livestock and we never thought twice about it and certainly didn't care when their denning season was.
I know that at this point it's just a matter of pride with you and that you are just backing up what you originally said in this thread or what you've said before but it seems pretty obvious that your logic isn't coming across to the masses and that you stand pretty much alone here.
I hope that what I've said above can shed some light for you as to why we do what we do and feel what we feel and why we don't agree with you.
All that being said... You must be some kinda much macho coyote hunter to kill all those coyotes that you do. You are the most successful coyote hunter I've ever had the opportunity to exchange words with. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif
Have you ever taken another PredatorMaster hunting with you? You should share some of your hunting expertise. It could be VERY rewarding to you. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
$bob$
R Buker
New member
I personally admire and agree with Q's view point. (Did I just say that out loud?) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
BUT. I also respect others who choose to hunt spring and summer. I never shoot coyotes in the spring and summer unless they are near my house. They eat my wiener dogs and that ticks me off. Just two mornings ago I let my last wiener dog out of the house in the morning and what do I hear 10 minutes later than a coyote yipping and kinda howling trying to lure my last wiener off the yard. It was too dark to shoot the damned thing so Ijust went out and called my dog back. And, yes, he was on his way out to kick some coyote butt. (Wiener dogs don't know they are small)
That coyote is not long for this world.
My thinking just like the above, is the reason I can deal with others shooting coyotes. If I were a farmer with coyote problems, I'd be shooting them year 'round or asking others to do so.
Now, as far as sport shooting during denning season, nope, I don't buy it at all. I think it's a waste.
BUT. I also respect others who choose to hunt spring and summer. I never shoot coyotes in the spring and summer unless they are near my house. They eat my wiener dogs and that ticks me off. Just two mornings ago I let my last wiener dog out of the house in the morning and what do I hear 10 minutes later than a coyote yipping and kinda howling trying to lure my last wiener off the yard. It was too dark to shoot the damned thing so Ijust went out and called my dog back. And, yes, he was on his way out to kick some coyote butt. (Wiener dogs don't know they are small)
That coyote is not long for this world.
My thinking just like the above, is the reason I can deal with others shooting coyotes. If I were a farmer with coyote problems, I'd be shooting them year 'round or asking others to do so.
Now, as far as sport shooting during denning season, nope, I don't buy it at all. I think it's a waste.
ldhunter,
You left out an entire classification of game animals, furbearers. Maybe being from north Florida, you haven't had to give this group much thought in yor life. But to just haphazzardly categorize a coyote in with groundhogs, prairie dogs and crows is a huge mustake my friend. Maybe you could do that in your neck of the woods, but in many parts of the U.S. you'd be dead wrong to do that.
Just because the fur trade has gone to crap doesn't make a fox or a mink any less a furbearer. How do you feel about fox? Talk about protection...You can't even kill a fox in Florida.
If a coyote is a game animal in the furbearer group, then maybe there is a little "higher order of ethics" that needs to be considered. As being one that grew up trapping and hunting furbearers and having done that off and on for the last 25 years or so...I definately view a coyote as being much different (management-wise. legal-wise, ethic-wise) than a crow. Hey, there's even seasons on crows in many states.
At any rate, furbearer or not....If it's shot for sport and you like doing it, it's just common sense to lay off during denning season. That's a no-brainer to me.
You left out an entire classification of game animals, furbearers. Maybe being from north Florida, you haven't had to give this group much thought in yor life. But to just haphazzardly categorize a coyote in with groundhogs, prairie dogs and crows is a huge mustake my friend. Maybe you could do that in your neck of the woods, but in many parts of the U.S. you'd be dead wrong to do that.
Just because the fur trade has gone to crap doesn't make a fox or a mink any less a furbearer. How do you feel about fox? Talk about protection...You can't even kill a fox in Florida.
If a coyote is a game animal in the furbearer group, then maybe there is a little "higher order of ethics" that needs to be considered. As being one that grew up trapping and hunting furbearers and having done that off and on for the last 25 years or so...I definately view a coyote as being much different (management-wise. legal-wise, ethic-wise) than a crow. Hey, there's even seasons on crows in many states.
At any rate, furbearer or not....If it's shot for sport and you like doing it, it's just common sense to lay off during denning season. That's a no-brainer to me.
whaknstak,
Welcome to PredatorMasters. You are fairly new here and don't know me. I've lived and hunted in 11 states and am fully aware of furbearers and their value.
Where are you from? There's no indication in your profile.
I briefly touched on the fur value of coyotes in my message.
I've killed countless fox in southern Illinois and there was a guy that used to come by and buy them from me.
You are right.. For some reason the grey fox is protected in Florida but their fur would likely have zero value and they don't threaten any prized food/trophy species anway so nobody really cares.
Where the coyote is a legitimate furbearer and he poses no significant threat to prized food/trophy animals he would naturally be considered a species to be managed. I fully understand that.
Shooting the coyote for sport has little effect on populations so laying off during denning seasons has little effect on populations.
I don't know how to answer your all yoru questions/statements here other than to say that if you will read this whole topic you will see that many of your issues have already been discussed several times already.
I hope this answers your questions.
$bob$
Welcome to PredatorMasters. You are fairly new here and don't know me. I've lived and hunted in 11 states and am fully aware of furbearers and their value.
Where are you from? There's no indication in your profile.
I briefly touched on the fur value of coyotes in my message.
I've killed countless fox in southern Illinois and there was a guy that used to come by and buy them from me.
You are right.. For some reason the grey fox is protected in Florida but their fur would likely have zero value and they don't threaten any prized food/trophy species anway so nobody really cares.
Where the coyote is a legitimate furbearer and he poses no significant threat to prized food/trophy animals he would naturally be considered a species to be managed. I fully understand that.
Shooting the coyote for sport has little effect on populations so laying off during denning seasons has little effect on populations.
I don't know how to answer your all yoru questions/statements here other than to say that if you will read this whole topic you will see that many of your issues have already been discussed several times already.
I hope this answers your questions.
$bob$
Q:In your earlyier post you say:
**There is actually just a small window in witch a hunter can starve a litter of pups. Once they are weaned other family members can and will take care of the pups. I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members will some times kill more than what is needed to feed the pups. **
I dont know where you got that info;but you would be wise to never again believe a word they say.
Of particular hilarity is the one where the "other" family members will kill more than they can eat to feed the pups.
A coyotes lifes goal IS killing more than it can eat;but if you think a whelping bitch is going out of her way to feed anothers pups,you are in for a shock.I dont know where your "Gov't Hunters" come from,but my guess is the moon or possibly La-La land.Perhaps they like to lounge in the summer.While that BS may fly with the fans,it aint gettin bought by the players.
In another post you made you said we get "brownie points" for utilizing fur or other parts of the resource.....
How do you breathe in that vacuum?If you think anti's or even undecideds make themselves aware of any good being done by hunters and trappers,you really ought to get out more.
All of my carcasses go to a wildlife rehab vet;specializing in birds of prey,or they go to my carcass piles which feed both Bald and Golden Eagles....wheres my parade,Man?
On with the topic at hand,I shoot til Apr 15th or so,after that only for predation control,start up again in August,preferably late August.
BUT,it is not for any Disneyfied altered reality of wildlife mommies or their big eyed offspring.....I just dont like shooting them in the summer,I am tired and usually have to focus on beaver control work by then.
Edge
**There is actually just a small window in witch a hunter can starve a litter of pups. Once they are weaned other family members can and will take care of the pups. I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members will some times kill more than what is needed to feed the pups. **
I dont know where you got that info;but you would be wise to never again believe a word they say.
Of particular hilarity is the one where the "other" family members will kill more than they can eat to feed the pups.
A coyotes lifes goal IS killing more than it can eat;but if you think a whelping bitch is going out of her way to feed anothers pups,you are in for a shock.I dont know where your "Gov't Hunters" come from,but my guess is the moon or possibly La-La land.Perhaps they like to lounge in the summer.While that BS may fly with the fans,it aint gettin bought by the players.
In another post you made you said we get "brownie points" for utilizing fur or other parts of the resource.....
How do you breathe in that vacuum?If you think anti's or even undecideds make themselves aware of any good being done by hunters and trappers,you really ought to get out more.
All of my carcasses go to a wildlife rehab vet;specializing in birds of prey,or they go to my carcass piles which feed both Bald and Golden Eagles....wheres my parade,Man?
On with the topic at hand,I shoot til Apr 15th or so,after that only for predation control,start up again in August,preferably late August.
BUT,it is not for any Disneyfied altered reality of wildlife mommies or their big eyed offspring.....I just dont like shooting them in the summer,I am tired and usually have to focus on beaver control work by then.
Edge
Q....Ohio was the state that the anti's were trying to get rid of dove hunting.
Food for thought....Ohio does not list a coyote as a furbearing animal. You dont haft to buy a fur takers permit to hunt them. You do for fox, coon, mink, and so on but not for coyotes. And we dont have a season on coyotes like they do for fox or what they say is a fur bearing animal. But they are a furbearing animals here. There fur brings fair price compared to the rest.
Estemated adverage price in 2003-2004 From ODNR
Beaver....11.65
Coyote....10.78
Grey Fox..12.55
Red fox...14.99
Mink......7.53
Muskrat...2.22
Grinners..1.16
coons.....6.68
Skunks....2.07
Brent
Food for thought....Ohio does not list a coyote as a furbearing animal. You dont haft to buy a fur takers permit to hunt them. You do for fox, coon, mink, and so on but not for coyotes. And we dont have a season on coyotes like they do for fox or what they say is a fur bearing animal. But they are a furbearing animals here. There fur brings fair price compared to the rest.
Estemated adverage price in 2003-2004 From ODNR
Beaver....11.65
Coyote....10.78
Grey Fox..12.55
Red fox...14.99
Mink......7.53
Muskrat...2.22
Grinners..1.16
coons.....6.68
Skunks....2.07
Brent
Edge,
**There is actually just a small window in witch a hunter can starve a litter of pups. Once they are weaned other family members can and will take care of the pups. I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members will some times kill more than what is needed to feed the pups. **
This is all new to me too... I think that the wolf research people have established that this actually happens in wolf extended families but the wolf is a totally different ball of fur than a coyote.
I am fairly certain that family groups of coyotes often band together to repel other coyotes that invade their territories and to take game too large for singles to take. BUT... This notion of coyotes raising the young of other coyotes is new to me too.
Q??? Can you point us to some legitimate research on this topic?
$bob$
**There is actually just a small window in witch a hunter can starve a litter of pups. Once they are weaned other family members can and will take care of the pups. I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members will some times kill more than what is needed to feed the pups. **
This is all new to me too... I think that the wolf research people have established that this actually happens in wolf extended families but the wolf is a totally different ball of fur than a coyote.
I am fairly certain that family groups of coyotes often band together to repel other coyotes that invade their territories and to take game too large for singles to take. BUT... This notion of coyotes raising the young of other coyotes is new to me too.
Q??? Can you point us to some legitimate research on this topic?
$bob$
ldhunter,
I shouldn't have came across so abrasively. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers....Well, maybe I did. But I did it with a grin on my face.
You're right. I only read the last couple of posts before I posted a reply to yours. The lack of a furbearer in your classifications just sort of got under my skin a little. Furbearers and the pursuit of them has been a love affair with me all my life. But, as has been said, that is probably what this debate boils down to...is the lowly ol' coyote worthy of "game animal" status or not. It looks like it depends on what your favorite game animals are and what effect the coyotes have on them.
I find this to be an intersting statement... "Shooting the coyote for sport has little effect on populations so laying off during denning seasons has little effect on populations." I guess I'd pose the same question you've posed to others... "Can you point us to some legitimate research on this topic?" The topic being "killing or not killing coyotes during denning season has little effect on populations."
Let's see, if you carry that scenario to the ridiculous extreme...last time I checked, if you kill all pregnant females, I think it would have a rather large effect on populations. I know, I know...not all pregnant females would be killed and in the real world of hunting it wouldn't work that way.
But that's what they said about passenger pigeons and bison and... No animal has ever gone extinct due to regulated hunting. Key word there being "regulated." Am I in fear of the coyote going extinct? Naw...not a bit. But the fact that history repeats itself does stand as a monument to man's stupidity.
Bottom line...I see the coyote as being a game animal that I like to hunt. That, in and of itself, inherently implies a set of ethics, rules, regulations. Now, I know I can't impose these ethics on others. But I can simply state my case (which is what this amounts to anyway).
As far as coyotes being the reason for the decline of deer in your state of Florida... I must respectfully exclaim.. Are you on crack?! I've hunted deer in Florida. What a freakin'circus! Dogs running everywhere, trucks screaming up and down the roads, cb's blaring, enough gun-fire to put Iraq to shame, hunters lined up and down the roads waiting for hounded deer to run through the gauntlet of flying lead.
Yes, I took part in that (about 15 years ago). It was a rush at the time. I hunted in parties where a single hunter had killed 16 deer that season. And I learned real quick that was NOT uncommon. Even an idiot like me could see that, in combination with decreasing habitat, if deer were going to continue to be "managed" in this way...days of good deer hunting are numbered.
"Welcome to Predator Masters" does not mean welcome to the world...or welcome to predator hunting... I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. I've lived and hunted in several states myself, north to the border, south to the border, west to the Rockies and east...Ok, not any further east than Ohio. And, just for kicks here... Why are you always asking where people live and how old they are? You gonna come and take my lunch money? (Said with a grin).
I shouldn't have came across so abrasively. Didn't mean to ruffle any feathers....Well, maybe I did. But I did it with a grin on my face.
You're right. I only read the last couple of posts before I posted a reply to yours. The lack of a furbearer in your classifications just sort of got under my skin a little. Furbearers and the pursuit of them has been a love affair with me all my life. But, as has been said, that is probably what this debate boils down to...is the lowly ol' coyote worthy of "game animal" status or not. It looks like it depends on what your favorite game animals are and what effect the coyotes have on them.
I find this to be an intersting statement... "Shooting the coyote for sport has little effect on populations so laying off during denning seasons has little effect on populations." I guess I'd pose the same question you've posed to others... "Can you point us to some legitimate research on this topic?" The topic being "killing or not killing coyotes during denning season has little effect on populations."
Let's see, if you carry that scenario to the ridiculous extreme...last time I checked, if you kill all pregnant females, I think it would have a rather large effect on populations. I know, I know...not all pregnant females would be killed and in the real world of hunting it wouldn't work that way.
But that's what they said about passenger pigeons and bison and... No animal has ever gone extinct due to regulated hunting. Key word there being "regulated." Am I in fear of the coyote going extinct? Naw...not a bit. But the fact that history repeats itself does stand as a monument to man's stupidity.
Bottom line...I see the coyote as being a game animal that I like to hunt. That, in and of itself, inherently implies a set of ethics, rules, regulations. Now, I know I can't impose these ethics on others. But I can simply state my case (which is what this amounts to anyway).
As far as coyotes being the reason for the decline of deer in your state of Florida... I must respectfully exclaim.. Are you on crack?! I've hunted deer in Florida. What a freakin'circus! Dogs running everywhere, trucks screaming up and down the roads, cb's blaring, enough gun-fire to put Iraq to shame, hunters lined up and down the roads waiting for hounded deer to run through the gauntlet of flying lead.
Yes, I took part in that (about 15 years ago). It was a rush at the time. I hunted in parties where a single hunter had killed 16 deer that season. And I learned real quick that was NOT uncommon. Even an idiot like me could see that, in combination with decreasing habitat, if deer were going to continue to be "managed" in this way...days of good deer hunting are numbered.
"Welcome to Predator Masters" does not mean welcome to the world...or welcome to predator hunting... I was born at night, but it wasn't last night. I've lived and hunted in several states myself, north to the border, south to the border, west to the Rockies and east...Ok, not any further east than Ohio. And, just for kicks here... Why are you always asking where people live and how old they are? You gonna come and take my lunch money? (Said with a grin).
Cal Taylor
Sponsor
Idhunter and Edge, I really don't have a dog in the fight about when it is right or wrong to kill a coyote. But as far as Q's info about other coyotes raising pups, he is absolutely correct, and apparently you two know way less about coyotes than you think you do. I den for a county predator program and the WoolGrowers assn. here and have for several years. I also have spent alot of time with some of the best denners and Govt trappers in the country. So I have alot of first and second hand experience with the types of killings possible and the things that can happen with summertime coyotes. Some of the worst livestock killing I have ever seen is after a wet bitch is killed and the male is trying to feed pups. Many times there is a yearling female that will stay over into the next year with the older female, and she will join right in in the feeding of pups. It happens. As for Q and your jabs at him, I know this much. If you hang out on the WWW and tout claims that you can't back up, you will soon be found out. People can't stand it when they are mediocre hunters, and someone else proves themselves to be far better than mediocre. I have never personally met Quinton, we have talked by e-mail and on the phone, but I know that many people have researched his claims, and I personally know furbuyers that have bought his fur. So I know how many coyotes he kills. He does what he says he does.
Rich and Cal,
Good info here but if you guys want me to answer questions it might be better if you don't ask 20 of them wrapped up in a narrative message.
Gotta go now. Work to do today.
Please do an actual quote of what I said if you want me to explain it.
I can't find even what you're talking about with some of your questions, but then maybe this stuff isn't aimed at me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Cal... You might notice that I didn't challenge Q at all on the validity of what he said about bitches raising other bitches pups.
I just said that it was the first I'd heard of it and did he have any research links related to it.
I almost always stop WAAAAAY short of calling ANYBODY a liar. I often ask where they got their info and where they live so I can have a better understanding of their geographical knowledge and experience. I think we all acknowledge that coyote populations and behavior are VERY geographic in nature.
Also... I have NEVER claimed to be even a mediocre coyote hunter. This is an absolute fact. I'm here to learn not teach.
Please quote me before attacking what I might or might not have said.
Oh... Yes... There was a quote about effects of sporting predation of coyotes on populations. You're absolutely right there. I don't have a specific source but have been reading here for many years and thought it common and accepted knowledge among sport and government hunters. I can't quote a source so take that one as my opinion backed up by what I read mostly here.
My experience isn't nearly vast enough to say that I can draw a direct relationship between sport hunting of coyotes and populations.
A parting shot that I'll take here is this....
Everyone has an agenda including "legitimate research" people. I have participated in a fair amount of university research myself and we were always "funded" by someone with an axe to grind. My/our conclusions and sometimes data were a source of constant debate.
I also have heard some really strange things that government ADC people have said and some of it is directly contradictory to what other government ADC people have said. I consider them experts in what they do but think their focus is often narrow and their grip on animal biology a bit tennuous.
$bob$
Good info here but if you guys want me to answer questions it might be better if you don't ask 20 of them wrapped up in a narrative message.
Gotta go now. Work to do today.
Please do an actual quote of what I said if you want me to explain it.
I can't find even what you're talking about with some of your questions, but then maybe this stuff isn't aimed at me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Cal... You might notice that I didn't challenge Q at all on the validity of what he said about bitches raising other bitches pups.
I just said that it was the first I'd heard of it and did he have any research links related to it.
I almost always stop WAAAAAY short of calling ANYBODY a liar. I often ask where they got their info and where they live so I can have a better understanding of their geographical knowledge and experience. I think we all acknowledge that coyote populations and behavior are VERY geographic in nature.
Also... I have NEVER claimed to be even a mediocre coyote hunter. This is an absolute fact. I'm here to learn not teach.
Please quote me before attacking what I might or might not have said.
Oh... Yes... There was a quote about effects of sporting predation of coyotes on populations. You're absolutely right there. I don't have a specific source but have been reading here for many years and thought it common and accepted knowledge among sport and government hunters. I can't quote a source so take that one as my opinion backed up by what I read mostly here.
My experience isn't nearly vast enough to say that I can draw a direct relationship between sport hunting of coyotes and populations.
A parting shot that I'll take here is this....
Everyone has an agenda including "legitimate research" people. I have participated in a fair amount of university research myself and we were always "funded" by someone with an axe to grind. My/our conclusions and sometimes data were a source of constant debate.
I also have heard some really strange things that government ADC people have said and some of it is directly contradictory to what other government ADC people have said. I consider them experts in what they do but think their focus is often narrow and their grip on animal biology a bit tennuous.
$bob$
bigc
New member
But Salemdawger,
What if the neighbors wife is really HOT? I mean really really really HOT? LOL.....that was funny.
Jay, I loved the part about arizona dogs not knowing what fur is....that is great!
I think ethics have a definition, but it is up to each of us to live out our definiton of those ethics.
Example: Imagine you are cruising around one day, you are very hungry...very hungry. All of a sudden, you see this 1/4 double cheese burger with fries and a 32 oz. Dr. Pepper(the nector of the Gods)...and it is all free! You go to get it and take a bite, then WHAM!!!!! A pain like you have never felt rips through your mouth and you start getting dragged around on the ground back and forth by your mouth. You fight and pull but something is ripping your mouth and pulling towards the stream in the park. You fight but can't get away and you are at the edge of the stream....you get pulled in and under the water. You can't breath..you are drowning...then something clobbers you on the head a couple of times and you start to slip into nothingness.
I LOVE FISHING!!!! Basically, that is what it is? If you want to be picky, it may be the meanest sport out there. But I love it! I understand that fish don't "feel" like us, but it is what it is. That is basically the game isn't it? Seems pretty ethical huh?
Q, $1500! WOW, what a deal! That blows your offer of free out of the water! I like you Q, even if you rub some the wrong way and we don't exactly see eye to eye on this. Your number of 160 makes mine of 32 look quite small! I hate that I have a full time job that is not ADC....curse you!!!
One more question for ya'll! I drew a cow tag this year. I don't have everyday of the season to hunt, so I hunt hard and earn my elk. I found a cow and her two calves in a clearing this year...I had 1 day left, was a ways in and didn't know if I'd get another chance so I took her. Her 2 calves stood there and watched me clean her out and haulher off. My buddy also drew a cow tag and we did end up going back to the same spot. Those 2 calves were still there. Would they survive without their mother? Maybe, 1 didn't. My buddy shot the yearling calf and it is the best meat I think I have ever eaten! I may be opening myself up for more critism, but I don't care. Both that cow and her calf were and are very tasty! What about the last calf? Did it die? Are we unethical for shooting the other 2? Just curious? To me, it is very similar in principle!
This is fun!
C
PS. Salemdawger, I was there form 1/96 to 5/99. I Majored in Biovet science for 3 years and then changed to Exercise Science and then on to PA school (Physicians Assitant). How about you?
What if the neighbors wife is really HOT? I mean really really really HOT? LOL.....that was funny.
Jay, I loved the part about arizona dogs not knowing what fur is....that is great!
I think ethics have a definition, but it is up to each of us to live out our definiton of those ethics.
Example: Imagine you are cruising around one day, you are very hungry...very hungry. All of a sudden, you see this 1/4 double cheese burger with fries and a 32 oz. Dr. Pepper(the nector of the Gods)...and it is all free! You go to get it and take a bite, then WHAM!!!!! A pain like you have never felt rips through your mouth and you start getting dragged around on the ground back and forth by your mouth. You fight and pull but something is ripping your mouth and pulling towards the stream in the park. You fight but can't get away and you are at the edge of the stream....you get pulled in and under the water. You can't breath..you are drowning...then something clobbers you on the head a couple of times and you start to slip into nothingness.
I LOVE FISHING!!!! Basically, that is what it is? If you want to be picky, it may be the meanest sport out there. But I love it! I understand that fish don't "feel" like us, but it is what it is. That is basically the game isn't it? Seems pretty ethical huh?
Q, $1500! WOW, what a deal! That blows your offer of free out of the water! I like you Q, even if you rub some the wrong way and we don't exactly see eye to eye on this. Your number of 160 makes mine of 32 look quite small! I hate that I have a full time job that is not ADC....curse you!!!
One more question for ya'll! I drew a cow tag this year. I don't have everyday of the season to hunt, so I hunt hard and earn my elk. I found a cow and her two calves in a clearing this year...I had 1 day left, was a ways in and didn't know if I'd get another chance so I took her. Her 2 calves stood there and watched me clean her out and haulher off. My buddy also drew a cow tag and we did end up going back to the same spot. Those 2 calves were still there. Would they survive without their mother? Maybe, 1 didn't. My buddy shot the yearling calf and it is the best meat I think I have ever eaten! I may be opening myself up for more critism, but I don't care. Both that cow and her calf were and are very tasty! What about the last calf? Did it die? Are we unethical for shooting the other 2? Just curious? To me, it is very similar in principle!
This is fun!
C
PS. Salemdawger, I was there form 1/96 to 5/99. I Majored in Biovet science for 3 years and then changed to Exercise Science and then on to PA school (Physicians Assitant). How about you?
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whaknstak,
"But that's what they said about passenger pigeons and bison and... No animal has ever gone extinct due to regulated hunting. Key word there being "regulated." Am I in fear of the coyote going extinct? Naw...not a bit. But the fact that history repeats itself does stand as a monument to man's stupidity.
Bottom line...I see the coyote as being a game animal that I like to hunt. That, in and of itself, inherently implies a set of ethics, rules, regulations. Now, I know I can't impose these ethics on others. But I can simply state my case (which is what this amounts to anyway). "
It's hardly fair to compare the coyote to the passenger pigeon or bison. Making a comparison like this is a bit extreme.
The passenger pigeon and bison were incredibly easy to decimate and the coyote is probably the most difficult creature to hunt in the whole country except the whitetail deer.
There have been massive efforts to exterminate the coyote in the past and they have largely failed and now that our culture is becoming more and more urban each year and less and less rural the coyote is reclaiming his original territories and expanding into areas he was not known to inhabit.
He's likely here to stay no matter what we do short of an all out war by sportsmen with a LOT of help by the government and that's not likely to ever happen again.
$bob$
"But that's what they said about passenger pigeons and bison and... No animal has ever gone extinct due to regulated hunting. Key word there being "regulated." Am I in fear of the coyote going extinct? Naw...not a bit. But the fact that history repeats itself does stand as a monument to man's stupidity.
Bottom line...I see the coyote as being a game animal that I like to hunt. That, in and of itself, inherently implies a set of ethics, rules, regulations. Now, I know I can't impose these ethics on others. But I can simply state my case (which is what this amounts to anyway). "
It's hardly fair to compare the coyote to the passenger pigeon or bison. Making a comparison like this is a bit extreme.
The passenger pigeon and bison were incredibly easy to decimate and the coyote is probably the most difficult creature to hunt in the whole country except the whitetail deer.
There have been massive efforts to exterminate the coyote in the past and they have largely failed and now that our culture is becoming more and more urban each year and less and less rural the coyote is reclaiming his original territories and expanding into areas he was not known to inhabit.
He's likely here to stay no matter what we do short of an all out war by sportsmen with a LOT of help by the government and that's not likely to ever happen again.
$bob$
Cal,
**I really don't have a dog in the fight about when it is right or wrong to kill a coyote. But as far as Q's info about other coyotes raising pups, he is absolutely correct, and apparently you two know way less about coyotes than you think you do. **
If you could just point out where I said,or even ALLUDED to the fact that other coyotes wont raise pups,I will adress that.
My suggestion would be that you read what I posted again,or have it read to you.
If it is required to coddle the ingnorant and the uninformed on this site,I must have missed the memo.
Also,if you have the time,please refer me to the post I made taking a "jab" at Q.I take people at their word;he says he kills coyotes;whoopee;so do about a zillion other people.
Considering whelping bitches,you are correct that a subordiante female can and will help raise litters of pups;but I am not sure what that has to do with my or Q's post.
Edge
**I really don't have a dog in the fight about when it is right or wrong to kill a coyote. But as far as Q's info about other coyotes raising pups, he is absolutely correct, and apparently you two know way less about coyotes than you think you do. **
If you could just point out where I said,or even ALLUDED to the fact that other coyotes wont raise pups,I will adress that.
My suggestion would be that you read what I posted again,or have it read to you.
If it is required to coddle the ingnorant and the uninformed on this site,I must have missed the memo.
Also,if you have the time,please refer me to the post I made taking a "jab" at Q.I take people at their word;he says he kills coyotes;whoopee;so do about a zillion other people.
Considering whelping bitches,you are correct that a subordiante female can and will help raise litters of pups;but I am not sure what that has to do with my or Q's post.
Edge
whaknstak,
Quote: "As far as coyotes being the reason for the decline of deer in your state of Florida... I must respectfully exclaim.. Are you on crack?! I've hunted deer in Florida. What a freakin'circus! Dogs running everywhere, trucks screaming up and down the roads, cb's blaring, enough gun-fire to put Iraq to shame, hunters lined up and down the roads waiting for hounded deer to run through the gauntlet of flying lead.
Yes, I took part in that (about 15 years ago). It was a rush at the time. I hunted in parties where a single hunter had killed 16 deer that season. And I learned real quick that was NOT uncommon. Even an idiot like me could see that, in combination with decreasing habitat, if deer were going to continue to be "managed" in this way...days of good deer hunting are numbered."
Answer: The type of hunting you just described is what we call slob hunting. Are you assuming that I and my friends hunt that way. Your experience is quite limited by your own admission. I suggest that if you ever come this way during December or January you let me know and you'll get an invite to come hunt with my party and you can see how the rest of us hunt with hounds.
No I am not on crack. That's a different generation that mine. If you will go back and read where I originally made that claim you will see that I quote several sources, how I gathered my info and why I made those conclusions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
$bob$
Quote: "As far as coyotes being the reason for the decline of deer in your state of Florida... I must respectfully exclaim.. Are you on crack?! I've hunted deer in Florida. What a freakin'circus! Dogs running everywhere, trucks screaming up and down the roads, cb's blaring, enough gun-fire to put Iraq to shame, hunters lined up and down the roads waiting for hounded deer to run through the gauntlet of flying lead.
Yes, I took part in that (about 15 years ago). It was a rush at the time. I hunted in parties where a single hunter had killed 16 deer that season. And I learned real quick that was NOT uncommon. Even an idiot like me could see that, in combination with decreasing habitat, if deer were going to continue to be "managed" in this way...days of good deer hunting are numbered."
Answer: The type of hunting you just described is what we call slob hunting. Are you assuming that I and my friends hunt that way. Your experience is quite limited by your own admission. I suggest that if you ever come this way during December or January you let me know and you'll get an invite to come hunt with my party and you can see how the rest of us hunt with hounds.
No I am not on crack. That's a different generation that mine. If you will go back and read where I originally made that claim you will see that I quote several sources, how I gathered my info and why I made those conclusions. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
$bob$
Cal Taylor
Sponsor
You guys can sure back up in a hurry!
Q said:
**There is actually just a small window in witch a hunter can starve a litter of pups. Once they are weaned other family members can and will take care of the pups. I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members will some times kill more than what is needed to feed the pups. **
Edge said:
I dont know where you got that info;but you would be wise to never again believe a word they say.
Of particular hilarity is the one where the "other" family members will kill more than they can eat to feed the pups.
Bob said: This is all new to me too... I think that the wolf research people have established that this actually happens in wolf extended families but the wolf is a totally different ball of fur than a coyote.
I am fairly certain that family groups of coyotes often band together to repel other coyotes that invade their territories and to take game too large for singles to take. BUT... This notion of coyotes raising the young of other coyotes is new to me too.
Cal said:
Do you remember this statement Edge?
It has been documented that killing sprees and increases in damage can occur when a wet bitch is killed.
Try the "Clever Coyote" and "The Government Denning Circular" by Stanley Young or W.C. Lemon's "Coyote Denning as a Method of Damage Control". Or "Coyote Den Ecology in the Northern Great Plains" by T.W. Rock.
Q said:
**There is actually just a small window in witch a hunter can starve a litter of pups. Once they are weaned other family members can and will take care of the pups. I have read and been told by government hunters that in some situations you can actually increase damage by killing off primarily providers because the other members will some times kill more than what is needed to feed the pups. **
Edge said:
I dont know where you got that info;but you would be wise to never again believe a word they say.
Of particular hilarity is the one where the "other" family members will kill more than they can eat to feed the pups.
Bob said: This is all new to me too... I think that the wolf research people have established that this actually happens in wolf extended families but the wolf is a totally different ball of fur than a coyote.
I am fairly certain that family groups of coyotes often band together to repel other coyotes that invade their territories and to take game too large for singles to take. BUT... This notion of coyotes raising the young of other coyotes is new to me too.
Cal said:
Do you remember this statement Edge?
It has been documented that killing sprees and increases in damage can occur when a wet bitch is killed.
Try the "Clever Coyote" and "The Government Denning Circular" by Stanley Young or W.C. Lemon's "Coyote Denning as a Method of Damage Control". Or "Coyote Den Ecology in the Northern Great Plains" by T.W. Rock.
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Cal,
Do you even know who originally posted that stuff? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
It certainly wasn't me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
I think you're getting confused as to who said what. That's why I use specific quotes and address the person I'm responding to.
Sincerely... It would be way easier to figure out what you mean if you'd take the time to directly quote and talk to the person you're quoting.
$bob$
Do you even know who originally posted that stuff? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
It certainly wasn't me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
I think you're getting confused as to who said what. That's why I use specific quotes and address the person I'm responding to.
Sincerely... It would be way easier to figure out what you mean if you'd take the time to directly quote and talk to the person you're quoting.
$bob$