So you think you can shoot????

I shoot a custom made 378 weatherby necked down to a 338 cal with a 250 sierra matchking at 3215 fps. topped with a leupold 6.5 x 20 tac. scope and can shoot 4 inch groups at 600 yards. but to do that I reload all my own loads and shoot almost every other weekend. It takes alot of rounds and $$$$$ to be very good at shooting long range. My best 3 shot group was 2 1/2 inch at 500 yards and I was shooting my remington sendero 7mm ultramag with a 6 x 18 leupold tach. If you know your rifle and your limits I dont think shooting long range is something you should stay away from. On the hunting shows they allways say that the deer is at 250 yards and that is too far to shoot. Me I am pissed off if at the range I miss my target at 500 yards. I think we should not judge the person until we actually see the person shoot. just my opinion
 
Turn, it is not the person in question but the act.

I expect you know this better than I - once that trigger is pulled - and I don't care if I pulled it, you pulled it, or the 1000 yard king pulled it - Murph and Mom are not at all impressed with who pulled the trigger and may choose to play with that bullet in varying and unpredictable ways enroute to the target.
That person's best group at that range or average group at that range does not matter. How well that one shot was set up and how Mom and Murph decided to have their way with that one shot are what matters.

In a situation with a live animal you don't have any flags and don't get any free shots to judge the conditions 1000 yards away. You're guessing.

And again, I'm not completely against it if every shot is followed up by looking for sign. I've yet to see any of these people state that they actually put boots on the ground across the canyon in case of a miss. I've yet to see them state how they positively identify and find the precise spot. I can think of some methods that might work, but I've not heard mention of them.
 
I would hazzard it got this far; because ignorant and irresponsible acts among the hunting fraternity, generally draw a substaintial amount of critizism, and rightfully so.
 
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Alot of opinions out there.
How did this get this far?




My therory is its like watching Evil Kinevil in the 70's jumping cars ramp to ramp on that big ole Harley.

Its dumb, but it does take skill. Just gotta watch. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
So, at what range does it become ignorant and irresponsible?

I was told the other day that calling coyotes was not hunting, only spotting and stalking coyotes could be considered hunting.

Some people run hogs, deer, coyotes, cats, fox, rabbits, etc. with dogs, is that hunting?

What the difference between shooting an animal from the window of a parked truck and shooting one from a deer stand?

Why use guns when bow hunting is more challenging?

When native Americans ran the buffalo and bison off of cliffs, was that hunting?

Is it ethical to shoot an animal and not eat it?

Fur hunting or let em lay?

we can go on, but I can only stand so much stupid.
 
My opinion is this;

We all need to be mindful of how we treat and speak to each other.

I have a freind that says he is done with his deer hunt in texas every opening morning by 8:30. The feeder goes off and the deer come running. That to me is not hunting, but it is where he lives and that is how they do it. Like it or not that is how it is done in some places.

I consider road hunting from a vehicle more hunting than that, at least you are looking for an animal not waiting for the animal to respond to a conditioned response.

That said, I respect the way he does it and let him enjoy his way of hunting.

There are so many different views of "ethics" it is rediculous. For example:

Michael Vick----Dog fighting, I think he should be put away and punished severly. However, if I really am honest with myself, do I really think that men training dogs to fight is any worse than men traing dogs to chase down and "fight" hogs, cats, bears etc. all of which have resulted in the death of many dogs. I agree with one but not the other and both are done for the enjoyment of the men.

My point is this. You are not any better than anyone else on here because you hunt a certain way. You are not right nor are you wrong unless laws are involved.

By the way I am going on no sleep for the last 36 hours so I have no clue if this makes sense.

C
 
Probably most everybody has moved on to other threads and are no longer reading this but I have a comment/question:

I watched the 1000 yard video shot, and I have no doubt as to the expertise of the shooter. He is a sniper/assasin on wild game and I wish I could shoot like him. On Youtube I also saw a man shoot an elk at over 800 yards across a wide canyon. I am impressed BUT...

Even with a 180 grain bullet from a 30 caliber rifle (which is the caliber used in the video) wind becomes a MAJOR factor at 800-1000 yards. Now I have done enough stalks to know that the wind may be blowing one direction where I am and another on the other side of the canyon where the animal is. Or, there could be NO wind where I am standing but a 8-12 mile wind where the animal (target) is standing. My question is this: How do you compensate for winddrift when there is NO way of knowing what the windspeed or wind direction is at the target site a thousand yards away??? MANY times I have stalked game from a long distance only to discover that when I arrived I was coming in from the WRONG direction because the wind direction was different at the target site than it was from where I started the stalk. Also, at 1000+ yards you are talking well over 1 second of flight time for the bullet to reach its impact. What about a wind gust or change of direction during the bullet flight? I don't see how you can compensate for these things.

I am not saying that it is wrong or unethical, I guess just don't understand the science behind their calculations.


Calcoyote

ps: Gerhard, you have my condolances. You never knew you were opening such a can of worms.
 
A long range shooter. Should be paying close attention to the wind[effects] "between" him/her & their target. All the while setting up prior, right before & during the shot.

Whether shooting over vegatation or snow cover. Often there are visual indicator's[blades of grass, loose surface snow, ect] moving with the wind. Not doing so, will/can cut your accuracy.
 
ChiliRojo or anyone else who belives long range hunting is unethical.

At what range does hunting become unethical and immoral?

Please define the line for us.

Thank you.
 
Quote:


By the way I am going on no sleep for the last 36 hours so I have no clue if this makes sense.

C



You've been on PM for 36 straight hours? That's more impressive than the 1000 yard shot. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Quote:

The best hunter will take the shortest shots. He can get his quarry close, and understands wind and animal behavior and travel.





the quarry is close and this is a short shot. do i take it?

[image]
P7190010.jpg
[/image]
 

Quote:
"Neither one comes within light years of the 2430YD 50 cal shot reportedly taken by the sniper team in Afghanistan."


Ahem!!! Canadian sniper team!



Hooah! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowingsmilie.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


Bronze Stars being awarded. Please sroll through the pics.
http://members.shaw.ca/gldnhwk2/3ppcli10.html

Task Force Rakkasan info.
http://www.ironsides.8m.com/tfrakkasan.html

Canadian Sniper info as related to Task Force Rakkasan.
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/BoltActionsSpeak.asp



Take any and all shots you have "sweated in preparation" to take! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Redhound80
 
JoeF,

"Finding the spot"

It's called "triangulation" I was taught this as a young guy. My Dad & his buds[all were fox/coyote stalker's]. They were very good @ it. Useing this method. I can triangulate the position of a bedded animal[way out there]. Useing field objects[coordinance marker's].

After I triangulate the animal's position. I [or anyone for that matter, once they learn how to] can stalk in from any direction[blindly] to that animal. What is fun is showing somehow how it works.

Some times, I'm within 50'[left or right] of where the animal is. Other times, they were directly[straight line] in front of me, as I topped the last hill.

I shown Mahamari[PM member] this a few Winter snowflys ago. His coyote was right in front of us, as we topped the last hill. We stalked in blindy over a number of hills from 1/2 mile away /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif.
 
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Kirby, good point, but triangulation doesn't work well in all terrain and conditons. I.e. wide open water far from shore points as an extreme example, but monofeatured desert, tundra, brush, solid forest with one small hole, etc. are all extremely difficult to get any points to triangulate from that you can see or recognize once you move. I am fairly good at it, and add a compass bearing at times, and still could not find the exact spot where a deer was standing at the shot at about 250 yards in steep alpine oblique to me a couple of years ago.

Far more at issue than whether a long ranger can find the spot where the critter was standing is whether he will cross a canyon etc. to check for sign of a hit.

Animals like elk are notorious for showing no reaction to mortal hits. I've seen that myself on several. A friend of mine had a 5 point bull spoil last Fall when it showed no sign of a hit in rain on a a steep brushy hillside. He looked where he thought it had been walking, found no blood or hair and assumed he missed. His partner found the dead bull the next day, behind the first small tree at the edge of the meadow. In hindsite, the shooter realized he'd looked for blood in the wrong spot.
 
The video that started this thread shows fabulous shooting, no question about it. And fabulous equipment, pushed to the edge of its capability by thoroughly knowledgeable operators.

At the same time, it is disturbing for several reasons, some significant, and some petty. For one thing it feeds the bozo shooters who wound at long range, and feeds the anti's who think anybody with a scoped rifle can kill at any range. There is no solving either of those however, no matter what we do.

Ethics enters every shot at a living critter, at ten yards or a thousand, mouse or moose. I'm no ethics cop and have learned finally that only God can ask other folks to obey his conscience. There are other more universal codes of conduct than personal conscience, fortunately.

Long rangers come over as defensive, which pushes them into denying reality at times, like the idea that at long range a bullet either misses clean or kills. That kind of claim raises more argument than it settles.

Long rangers would be better served to say up front that they like to shoot long, enjoy pitting their ability and gear against real field conditions, and put their hunting energy and learning into ballistics etc. In short, the risk of wounding an animal due to its movement, a puff of wind, etc. is a risk they are willing to take. That's reality and I handle that just fine. To varying degrees that's true of every shot at every animal at every range.

That’s far more honest and less argumentative than the song and dance about not missing and the “need” to shoot long (claimed by the same shooter on another of his videos about an 840 yard elk). Bow hunters kill all kinds of big game regularly, so the claim that long range is the only way to kill a particular animal rings hollow. I.e.: “Nah, it was just easier with my skills, and better odds of getting the critter to shoot from here rather than stalk closer. Plus, I have this fabulous long range gear and want to shoot a critter way out there."

As others have mentioned, we only see videos of successful shots. The odds are against this guy, even with all of his gear and ability, or we wouldn’t be swooning over what a shot it was. Look at the slight mirage and pulse wobble. The guy is extremely good at trigger control. But the inexorable math is that increasing distance from muzzle to target increases the probability of a miss --- for anybody.

Bringing up the many people who miss at close range as if that justified long shots is irelevant. It's not much of a defense for Ted Bundy to say it is OK for him to drop bodies in the woods because Jeffry Dahmer buried bodies in his back yard.

I’m not against long range shooting at critters by people with the ability and proven equipment. I suppose it makes me inconsistent, but I have fewer qualms about doing it on smaller predators and varmints than I do on big game.

The flaunting of long range shooting at big game bothers me, but I distrust that in myself because it is mainly intuitive. I suspect that the main negatives of long range shooting of game are still unseen and will produce unintended consequences for hunting as a whole. I know that in BC such long range shooting (and wounding) has closed some areas to hunting. Whatever happens, it is a new era, and that video shows Olympic, world class shooting.
 
Okanagan,

Good points. To bad I don't live in area's you speak of. I would enjoy the challenge. However, even in unfamiliar territory I believe an experienced spotter with a boatload of triangulation experience, would fare very well. As they will use/pick-out "specific" field marker's. Sometimes, I'll look 360, to do my final figuring. Take my time, slow, methodical & precise, before my stalk in.

Personally, I've always considered myself an average shot. But some rifles I've got "comfortable" with. I was well above average with those.

I've wounded[non-recovered] a fare amount of Red's & coyote even close ones over the yrs. Only [1] truely bothered me, where I lost sleep. [That was a large gold coyote-x]. Canine took a 55gr SN .223 quartered through it's chest. Took out a handfull of lung chunks on the exit. Canine ran then walked 3/4 mile & crawled under an abandoned farm building. I know, because I tracked him the whole way. I suppose some would say I shouldn't shot @ 100yrds with a .223 rifle[to far, eh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif].

Both of these canine predator's[Red's & coyote], can sometimes take a pounding et recover quickly, no doubt. Shooting long doesn't bother me whatsoever, as long as a shooter is comfortable. Et has a firearm that will do the job[energy wise]. Regardless of his/her target.

Some say, they respect the coyote. I admire them, for their abilities.
 
Quote:
My opinion is this;

We all need to be mindful of how we treat and speak to each other.

I have a freind that says he is done with his deer hunt in texas every opening morning by 8:30. The feeder goes off and the deer come running. That to me is not hunting, but it is where he lives and that is how they do it. Like it or not that is how it is done in some places.

I consider road hunting from a vehicle more hunting than that, at least you are looking for an animal not waiting for the animal to respond to a conditioned response.

That said, I respect the way he does it and let him enjoy his way of hunting.

There are so many different views of "ethics" it is rediculous. For example:

Michael Vick----Dog fighting, I think he should be put away and punished severly. However, if I really am honest with myself, do I really think that men training dogs to fight is any worse than men traing dogs to chase down and "fight" hogs, cats, bears etc. all of which have resulted in the death of many dogs. I agree with one but not the other and both are done for the enjoyment of the men.

My point is this. You are not any better than anyone else on here because you hunt a certain way. You are not right nor are you wrong unless laws are involved.

By the way I am going on no sleep for the last 36 hours so I have no clue if this makes sense.

C




Yes baiting isnt hunting weither its legal or not. Hunters have a black eye enough as it is. Its not hard to find deer trails, crossings, and feeding areas (natural).
 
Kirby, yes, I'd like to work with you. I'm sure I could pick up some points. I got started triangulating in row boats in salt water, finding fishing spots by stretching a string on a chart from shore points over a reef, and then rowing to where the points lined up. A guy in a yacht told us the only way to fish in that area was with a depth finder to locate the reefs. We came back in a rowboat overloaded with huge rock cod. I never told him how we did it.

My best long stalk was similar to triangulating, on a deer at nearly 3/4 mile range that I could see in a tiny open spot of a vast timbered mountain side cut with a few cliffs and a few steep narrow slide meadows. It was lying on a small ledge of rock. How to find the deer and approach it was the problem, from the little hole in the timber where I was. I would lose sight of the deer if I moved ten feet. It was so far I couldn't tell if it was buck or doe with 10 power binoculars, due to brush sticks behind its head.

I took a compass reading on the deer, then turned 180 degrees and found a peak ten miles away, opposite to the deer, something I knew I could see on the horizon from his side of the basin. I couldn't go straight to the deer on that compass heading due to cliffs and wind direction. I hiked and climbed around and above the deer, lined up the peak and sneaked down, and what still amazes me, found it in its bed at 40 yards as I peered under brush from my knees with binoculars.

Sorry, kiind of wandering off topic, like real hunt yarns do.
 
http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/26727Triangulating_a_coyote.jpg

Okanagan

Here is a simple sketch of triangulating a stationary target ie; coyote.

I use as many field objects as necessary to "pin-point" a coyote's coordinance/location.

Most important, are "field object" or [distance] to the West, East, North & South of the coyote. I look @ these objects, when I'm in "alignment" to the coyote. IE; I'm straight South of the coyote.

I also, use an object on the last highest horizon[North to South or East to West of the coyote that are aligned. If a field object, doesn't line up "picture perfect". I estimate feet/yardage, off to the side[direction] of the coyote's position.

Once thats all figured in "visually". The last step is wind & terrain concealment, consideration while stalking in.

Reason, why it is important to view all angles or as much as possible. In triangulating. Is when you come from a different direction/angle. The scenery looks/is very different.

BTW, Exceptional! stalk on that deer /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
 
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