What you don’t know about ADC

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I'm sure you'll disagree and with that I'm fine.


Actually Byron, you post very little that I disagree with.
I posted a big ole happy face so that you would know that I was tweaking you good-naturedly. You must have missed it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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Even so, a pair of coyotes can live near sheep and never bother them.



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Rich, That sentence was ment to point out the fact that non-threatning coyotes around sheep pens is about as rediculous a statement as I've ever heard.



Byron, maybe you should study up on some of the predation operations conducted on sheep ranches. When Wiley E was a Moderator here even he had posted similar experiences about the selective culling he had performed.

Just because a coyote lives within 5 miles (or even 1) of a sheep pen you cannot assume it's a guaranteed sheep killer. That's just not a biologically proven fact. That kind of thinking is steeped in myth and folklore. I'm not trying to be disrespectful to you Byron, but you're off-base on this one.
 
I took it that way Rich.

Sarcasm amoung friends is always welcome when meant in good nature. Livens the debate so to speak. Pointed sarcasm with the purpose of pizzing people off is not welcome because it has a nasty habit of derailing the debate. I'm no Jerry Falwell but I know the bad version of sarcasm when I see it.

I consider Nasa a good friend and very sharp witted. I felt he understood my point in good taste. If not, I apologize.

Poor example but very illistrative:
Burying a bloated coyote below a friends bunk would be received as a great practical joke by a friend /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif but an act of warfare by and enemy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif. The use of sarcasm is often received in much the same way. It can be good or bad. But you new this already.

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
“Kill ‘em all” is often used as a "preventative" to reduce (total) local coyote populations before any livestock losses occur. As a result however, coyotes who would never attack sheep are killed along with those who might actually cause problems.

Not all coyotes attack livestock, even when no other prey is available. Killing a coyote who has no interest in attacking livestock creates a vacant territory that will quickly be filled by a nearby coyote or dispersing younger animals. This new coyote may cause problems that would have been averted by allowing the original resident to remain and defend its territory.

Many people are not be aware of this fact but Animal Damage Control officers are. But of course it’s their job to know this, and this is a consideration they take into account when working a predation problem.

Do coyotes attack humans? Yes they have. Does this mean all coyotes attack humans? See how it sounds when you put it in proper perspective? Some coyotes are predispositioned to certain levels of aggression, and some are not. Kind of like people, huh? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
its kinda like assuming all men drink beer.
while i'll drink one if its offered to me i never go to the bar and get one.
all coyotes are not bold enough to do foolish things but among there buddys they can muster up the guts. the ones you have to worry about are the blue collar coyotes trying to raise a famaly and keep the child molesters at bay.
do something bad to me you might get a arguement touch my kids or wife its life and death.
that would be a good comparison of aggresive and non threatning coyotes.
old coyotes are bold young ones are timid untell they get together in a group.
don't know if that makes scence to you guys but its as clear as mud to me.
 
Nasa,

You and Scott are certainly entitled to your conclusions.

If you choose to let coyotes hang out in close proximity to your sheep that is perfectly fine with me, but don't be surprised if one day that non-threatening coyote decides one day he wants to try a little lamb.

Somewhere we have got off into some assumptions about each other and our motives. One of these assumptions that only the guilty coyotes should be shot. This leads to the assumption that there must be innocent coyotes. To me they are just coyotes not good, bad, guilty, or innocent. Being that they are coyotes they all possess the ability to do harm. I concede the fact that some are worse than others and that not all coyotes are sheep killers. Being that they are not causing a problem they would hsve nothing to fear from me or most guys during this time of year. So killing wrong coyote or an innocent coyote in the immediate vacinty of where the problem occured is not as likely. Especially during this time of year.

In Scott's and others experience it is best to target only the ones that cause the problems, apparently only during the dening season, but at other times of the year it's acceptable bring on the plane and other methods for indiscriminant killing. If this works for you and Scott and you have proven to yourself this is this best method then by all mean keep doing it. In fact my method is practically the same. It is my goal to kill as many coyotes as I can each time I go out. By March it’s beginning to get to miserable out to enjoy this so I curtail my hunting except for when I’m needed or called. When called I go to the exact place the problem with the coyote occurred and derive a plan to kill coyotes until the problem is solved. Most of you seasoned pros understand the problem coyote or coyotes is usually fairly close to the where the problem occured. I don’t have time or the desire to try and kill every coyote in a five-mile radius of the offense, my goal is to kill the offending coyote or coyotes. I however don’t give any a pass whether as you called it they are guilty are not. Some may call it collateral damage. I call it a bonus. He simply shouldn’t have been there.

Non-threatening, guilty, innocent makes not one bit of difference to me. Their all just coyotes doing what coyotes do. My process for dealing with problem coyotes may be overly simplistic for some but it has worked for me time and time again..

Byron
 
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First off I will tell you that I am not an ADC man. It seems I do a lot of it but dont get paid. And thats the way I like it. The work in Calif, is so much different than the rest of the country. In California your hands are tied no more useing traps or poision. The use of snares are still ok, I wont use them. Have you ever seen what they do to a live coyote? On the subject of using a plane. This is the way to go if you wont to due some damage to the coyote population. Shooting out of a plane in Calf, sucks, you can only use steel shot.This is very dangerous for the shooter and the pilot. The pilot has to slow almost to a stall so the shooter can get off as many shots as he can, steel shot is very hard to kill with and must be used at close range. The pilot usually has to make two or three passes to get the job done. When w useing a plane we have four to five ATVs on the ground all shooters with radios. We also have a truck on the ground wit a pack of dogs. Then there is usually a Fish And Game officer in a truck to observe.
 
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Somewhere we have got off into some assumptions about each other and our motives



Byron, that just may be the only differences we have on this subject. Let's see if it is with some arbitrary questions.

1. If you knew a coyote lived close to your house, would you kill it first chance?
2. Have you ever called in a coyote, and then decided not to kill it, and just watch it instead?
3. If you "accidently" discovered an active den (in a non-ADC situation) would you clear it?
4. If you're driving late at night, with no traffic, and a coyote is munching RK alongside the road, would you try to hit it?

I'm not trying to change the way you do anything, rather I'm just pointing out that doing things only one way isn't always necessary. It may be easier, but it isn't always smarter. That in fact, overkill can sometimes make a situation worse. It's just another option we have as a consideration. That's the only point I was trying to make.

My Grandfather (mothers side) didn't have a lot of respect for animals. He wouldn't allow any kind of animal in the house, including birds or goldfish. None of his children were allowed to have pets. (As adults, they didn't allow their own kids to have pets either.) He would kick dogs and cats that would dare too come close to him. His attitude was, "If you can't eat it, ride it, or plow with it, it's not worth the powder it'd take to blow it to hell." He was the same way with people, too. "If you don't have a use, you're just taking up space." I lived with my grandparents until I was 7. Somehow, I survived that environment. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
1. depends
2. On a few occations but very rarely. When I call them in it is usually with full intentions of getting him as close as I can and then killing him.
3.Probably not.
4. I've always tried to avoid hitting any animal on the hyway.

Nasa,

I'm no hethen, red neck that just luvs to watch stuff die. I'm a coyote hunter and I hunt for a reason and or a purpose which I won't waste my time explaining here on PM of all places. I hate wounding stuff and try and make it as painless as possible. I do have a heart and I feel for all animals including coyotes when they are subjected to undue missery. I'm not a cold caloused killer. I was raised on a ranch tending to livestock and have seen first hand how brutal coyotes can be. Being human though and having feellings I do have a certain amount of remorse each time I kill an animal but as a hunter to my very soul this is what I do and make no apologies for it. Do I enjoy it? You bet I do, but it is not all about the kill for me and you know that. Its about the hunt, the challenge, and the experience. A perfect day to me is a calm cool day on a big ranch with a friend a call or two around my neck, and my rifle. Swirving to hit a coyotes in the ditch? Where did that come from? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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1. If you knew a coyote lived close to your house, would you kill it first chance?
2. Have you ever called in a coyote, and then decided not to kill it, and just watch it instead?
3. If you "accidently" discovered an active den (in a non-ADC situation) would you clear it?
4. If you're driving late at night, with no traffic, and a coyote is munching RK alongside the road, would you try to hit it?




Tom- I know you were asking this of Byron, but I though I might interject a little here to see if I can tell where you are coming from.

1. Yes. My wife and kids like there cats, and my neighbors have goats ducks and the like. As a matter of fact, 2 days ago I heard a pack start up back of hay field behind my house and grabbed my rifle and caller to see if I could get them. Grabbed the foxpro, but realized the batteries were dead when I got there. Must have left it on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

2. No Not yet any way.

3. Probably not. I've never found a den in the thickets around here.

4. No. Like Byron, I try to avoid anything on the rode for several reasons. Why tear up my vehicle to kill an animal, not sporting, not very ethical, and kind of sadistic really.


I do have a question that I can't quite figure out (I guess cuz I'm not a pro). If you go out the sheep pen (or where ever the problem might be) and call up a coyote. How do you determine if you should shoot it? If you don't want to shoot the "wrong" one, how do you tell?
 
"Not all coyotes attack livestock, even when no other prey is available. Killing a coyote who has no interest in attacking livestock creates a vacant territory that will quickly be filled by a nearby coyote or dispersing younger animals. This new coyote may cause problems that would have been averted by allowing the original resident to remain and defend its territory.
"

Interesting!! but how would one go about choosing which coyote he should have protecting his sheep? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
1) Maybe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
2) Not by my choice /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
3) NOPE!
4) How many beers have I had? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif Ah crap, NO! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif


Why is it that an ADC debate is always heated?

Is it
A) Because the ADC guys think they are the only ones who can solve ranchers problems?

B) Because recreational callers get in the way of ADC guys gettin the job done.

C) Because Rec. callers will do a job for free, thus making it harder for the ADC guys to make a living.

Or D) That ADC guys have to prove themselves superior in order to justify their jobs.

Any one of us will pick different answers, and for very different reasons. Does this make any of us right or wrong? Yes and No. In fact this will never be resolved, because everyone looks at it from different angles. My angle is much the same as Byrons, in fact I was going to make a post earlier, but after reading his post decided that everything I wanted to say had been said. Before you ask it is not because he is from Texas, more so because he practices good common sense. If its a regional thing, then so be it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I dont know much about the ADC schooling, but I do know several people that have been there. It did little for the ADC guys I have been around, or rather behind, because of there lack of success and overall approach in general. I know this field is much the same as many others. You will have good eggs and bad eggs. Most fall through the cracks, leaving few really good ADC guys out there. I happen to think we have a few of the good ones around here. I also know there are some pretty poor callers out there that can educate coyotes in a hurry. However, even a really good recreational caller and a really good ADC guy will never see eye to eye. Even though they are both very good at their specific trades, there motives are very different.

I have heard ranchers swear by ADC work and Ranchers that feel that others can take care of the problem just as well. We hunt hundreds of thousands of acres that have active ADC programs, the ranchers welcome calling with open arms. Not because ADC guys dont call well, but because they rarely call in our area. Most trap, and call in the helicopters when the problem gets out of hand. Calling is the last thing on there minds.

I know that calling will not solve all of the ranchers problems. I also know that trapping will not solve all of the problems either. There is a fine balance and around here it seems to tip heavily in either direction and rarely equalize. Therefore the struggle will push on against ADC and Rec. Callers. Rarely does either respect eathother, and they probably never will.

We are all type A personalities, you woudnt be so passionate if you werent. I can vaguely see this from both sides, even though I list heavily to one. I don’t care to do denning and very rarely call during the summer, however, I know there is a need to do so in certain situations and certain areas. In my area the trappers will badmouth me, and I will badmouth them. Just the same as last year. We will both be there this year no matter how much we don’t like each other. When it gets cold I just try and get em before they do. LOL

Take care,

Todd
 
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Interesting!! but how would one go about choosing which coyote he should have protecting his sheep?



Ahhh, now look what you made me do...spray pepsi all over my key board. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
Redfrog, your last line cracked me up /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

Curious as to the "correct" answer on that, myself.
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Seriously though, when speaking of coyotes. I think it's best to shy away from useing words like, "never" & "always" as to what they will, won't or can't do /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I am curious as to how many of ya have hunted on ranches that have ADC in place for yotes, yet the rancher still wants you to come out and shoot as many as you can? I ask this b/c The ranch I hunt deer on has m-44's set up, snares, etc, yet we are supposed to kill every yote we see b/c the rancher asks us to.A friend of mine who hunts north of Ozona hunts on parts of a 19 section ranch, which runs sheep. They also have ADC in place, yet each hunter is asked to kill every yote they see, and the rancher even pays them a bounty, which he takes the yotes in himself and gets the bounty back. I have been asked to go out, and I probably will sometime in september.

I am asking this, b/c it seems that if the adc guys have a problem with hunters coming out and interfering, shouldnt they let the rancher know, or do most of them do this allready, and the rancher just doesnt care, more so wanting to rid his place of all coyotes no matter what?

Anyway, just wanted some opinions on this, or if you hunt somewhere with ADC guys around, and have been told to not interfere. I have no problem staying away, if that is what the ADC man wants, I just have never been told not too.
 
I would think we would all try to get along for the better end of the sport! Bottom line we are all here for the same reason! We all like it!

Brent
 
I imagine thats why the professionals get sideways with us Froggy,they know how to determine which coyote/coyotes are the offending animals.....and we, don't.
Same as the local ranchers, who presume, any coyote is a stock killer, so when a recreational caller wants to shoot coyotes on his place, both the rancher and the caller believe they are helping.
And who knows, every now and again the caller might just hit the jackpot,and kill a problem coyote, it's all a numbers game. If you call near where a coyote killed or just scavenged on a lamb or calf, you might get lucky and kill the right coyote?
If your happy,and the rancher is happy....it's all good, most likely it will guarantee you a return ticket,and thats what most guys cherish. Im sure the ADC guys just tire of seeing some callers puff their chest out with a post alluding to how they cleaned up a "problem" when in fact,all they did was kill a coyote or three.
 

I think the problem we have been having in comunication comes from people painting everybody with such a broad brush. For instance these are flawed assumsions, only ADC men have all the answers. All recreational callers have no answers and are apparently ignorant in coyote behavior, demographics, and are incapable of handleing problem coyotes. All or most ranchers have the kill 'em all attitude and can't tell the difference in predation and a coyote simply feeding on the dead. These stereotypes along with the high brow, in your face, attitude of I know more than you because I'm a pro and your not gets old. Now, I'm quiet positive Cal and a few others here are very proficient in what they do and for that my hat is off to them. Just because they chose to do it for a living doesn't make them any more knowledgable than someone with just as much experience that chose to go on to different careers. We've got some pretty sharp guys around here some with lots of experience with coyotes and some with very little or none. To my point: Just because a guy has ADC in his title doesn't mean he knows it all and just because a guy isn't a hired ADC man doesn't make him any less effective and maybe even more so. I've seen plenty of ADC men that couldn't poor pizz out of a boot, but around here the pay is low and I guess you get what you pay for.

I'm way behind on work so I'm going to be off this computer most of the time in the next few days. You guys try and get along and please quit trying to tell each other how much they don't know and share your experiences instead of pointing out how stupid or ignorant someone is. We are all here to learn and share. I'm human and have been guilty of the same thing but I'm trying to do better and ask that you do as well.

A poem that rings true in my ear goes as follows:

A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still.

Byron
 
My attempts to elicit some contributions from the ADC "working" pro's seems to have done more to run them off than draw them in. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Is it that folks see them as "competition" to our sport? I don't, mostly because of where I live, I guess. Some of you live smack in the middle of cattle or farm country. The situation might be a little different there. Even so, with or without their efforts, we won't be running out of coyotes any time soon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Coyotes on private land are usually seen as a threat by the landowner, whether he's a stock producer, or not. But what about coyotes on public (BLM) land. Not all BLM land is leased/used for grazing. Do these coyotes get the same intense ADC attention as we see given to those on private property? I haven't seen that to be the case.

I do most of my calling on open range. I may go all day without seeing cattle but call in a few coyotes. And times I see the exact opposite. Lotsa' cows, no yotes. Or lotsa' 'lopes and no yotes. Where am I going with this? Oh yeah. Are these coyotes any "less" of a threat (to stock) when not on private land? Could all of this huff and attention be more for the benefit of the landowner, and what he represents, and less about the actual difficulty of the task at hand? Opinions?
 
NASA,
I for one, do not see ADC men as a threat. I do have to admit that when I travel 700 miles to call coyotes, I do cringe a bit when the rancher tells me that THEY flew the area yesterday. I go ahead and call the area anyway, and I still call coyotes. I don't really believe that the guys who plan to fly over an area to shotgun the coyotes see me as a threat either. Now the professional caller or trapper may well see me as a threat. Why? Because they will be trying to call or trap coyotes that I just spooked. I don't really think that my calling will harm the trapper's chances, but the callers are a whole different thing. I don't trap anymore, but still hope to call a few coyotes before I give up the ghost. I want to be friends with all honest and ethical hunters & trappers, professional or not.
 


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